X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B.146803387612396 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: report 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Received: via spool by submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B.146803387612396 (code B ref -1); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:12:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 03:11:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43148 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLifk-0003Ds-6z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:11:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46468) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLifi-0003Dd-M7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:11:14 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLifc-0004xj-EB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:11:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,FREEMAIL_FROM, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:59726) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLifc-0004xe-An for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:11:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37438) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLifa-0002io-6j for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:11:07 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLifY-0004wb-6O for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:11:05 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-x22b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22b]:36784) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLifY-0004wX-1w for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:11:04 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id f189so83483088oig.3 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 20:11:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=m6u2nCrFTEGxxVyg2JwCbXxeTeYwxsdL/wo8NW5n2lI=; b=rtEUnIjQx/sIBzeanyJQx/QU7yCAm9uLjA3QrcQwRV24oFcMfXGSNdMy4h49t2tsfo yipXanbz2peP1K8zmiXRDR3muzoo2ZFG+5VDob9p1llZQIY5gLuinjiTX03X3/zTJuli lwmtsuv8zclHcqbqLPOB+M/VqFq7ypvff3lMzelCM7k7aSw3ics6wA1ftVbgi1EcTQOS ElkjytLwccVY9pTpk33ByIjambyqmQOY9HQy1ZqaDlv4bJ9s9fvWnuDnwllYw4Fj2VOb 3UUbw6JnpcqP0arKIsal3oxA3PcQz7crxOp/xtc+RYaBS+zxoCPW1AYswaddgx7+ywrK NSTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=m6u2nCrFTEGxxVyg2JwCbXxeTeYwxsdL/wo8NW5n2lI=; b=XQcgyffJxYWDW3ERnE3+bDqL3+r/EFU1Ww3e0ZzNqcVubLD4hcuX8Q7iDFDrxOxui3 fUaVqwFR5+0V0mJXXk4OtUMdikuQ13ScM7S1WLPBWBcg7oNUXueikxu56pls98qI5QRQ t2UxqVi1bwxtAzA4r8G6jcr5LzGxkQhSShOhYnBfzEzCAfoYr/Ov4TGoJ22OTZJl+Is4 naDN/MJHtFoJIMSz6qAuNK7VSqU4d83rXj2b23R/JmXzvJ2HookqsEZsWf14MnDQU4o6 QpfqnoFp2WeWYkOwfUAkflnZwvwVfaJHUIjknbkl8vwlUzqxnoHXoKYJsfESdH3yzEp3 ApPA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJmVTO4UUtYIYx/RLvaCPZTgZmbkebAn+W73/vO1/egi1wa0VM9EiU0wzUr+PZqPGhww1p1dSa+nQ/ggw== X-Received: by 10.157.38.246 with SMTP id i51mr5170349otd.112.1468033863283; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 20:11:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.4.197 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 20:11:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:11:02 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: IxN6Aj2z9BMc0qv-ly0vCUyHdh8 Message-ID: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) A trivial example: (defcustom time (current-time-string) "the time" :type 'string) Then try to M-x customize-options RET time RET, it will show with state "CHANGED outside Customize." Similarly, doing <f1> v time RET shows the "original value" as the current time, not the actual value when `time' was defined. See also http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=4755#25
Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Subject: bug#23926: Acknowledgement (defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results) Message-ID: <handler.23926.B.146803387612396.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org> References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 23926 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:12:02 +0000 Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please send it to 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system. --=20 23926: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D23926 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 06:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146804589010985 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN>, 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146804589010985 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 06:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 06:31:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43186 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLlnW-0002r7-4C for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 02:31:30 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:34535) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bLlnT-0002qp-OX for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 02:31:28 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u696VJbX023152 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 06:31:20 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u696VJVb004867 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 06:31:19 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u696VI4M023488; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 06:31:18 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0331acec-645d-4362-8e9a-a18433b518df@default> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:31:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) Calling such an expression "non-pure" can be misleading. The concept you are looking for is apparently just non-constant, IOW, an expression whose value is not always the same. IOW the expression is not referentially transparent. But in Lisp non-pure often refers to or suggests side effects, esp. mutation of structure. That's not required for this bug to manifest. All that's needed is for the expression to not necessarily return the same value each time it is evaluated.=20 Anyway, yes, I agree that filing another bug for this (separate from #4755) is good.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146804839614658 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146804839614658 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:14:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 07:13:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43208 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLmRw-0003oL-Gh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:13:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52016) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLmRu-0003o9-I1 for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:13:14 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLmRo-0005Hw-Jr for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:13:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36483) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLmRo-0005Ho-H4; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:13:08 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4191 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLmRn-00015X-B7; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 03:13:07 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:13:00 +0300 Message-Id: <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> (message from Noam Postavsky on Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:11:02 -0400) References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> > Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:11:02 -0400 > > A trivial example: > > (defcustom time (current-time-string) > "the time" > :type 'string) > > Then try to M-x customize-options RET time RET, it will show with > state "CHANGED outside Customize." Similarly, doing <f1> v time RET > shows the "original value" as the current time, not the actual value > when `time' was defined. Why is this a bug? Seems to be expected behavior to me.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: npostavs@HIDDEN Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 11:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146806530821748 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146806530821748 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 11:56:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 11:55:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43289 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLqqi-0005ed-9Z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:55:08 -0400 Received: from mail-it0-f54.google.com ([209.85.214.54]:35020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLqqg-0005dz-8E; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:55:06 -0400 Received: by mail-it0-f54.google.com with SMTP id u186so28358672ita.0; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 04:55:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=4XgNw1PEdy/Q9sdN6HE9iV4vjUZdWfkzc1P2jN0YO2Q=; b=bJbKGKV1nr67TVLUaiqeHNHirLbHdnriq7WniXV/CHHx55cH34x3L9W/IIQ1XNyZA6 +c/hDA9ehKP6iV45f7dejcq788DOqVyO7pjAgOr9lXBvMe0I/KK+sSZv73Yjm5iqTxJG tBbIfLUaNr9LdIW9Es5XDDSCkStj596VNEhcUZobzm0roMDjz0EnwOgrcQZw6sIMpywp 9eEgs+lHrZpqXR4fp/B7G2gXqcdorhrPKcO7aBi3sRp5JHZvCsz+SV4REzYjT9yqYSdC YDwb7vDYNqYGlFsI+2R6eM+P104dNmhc7SIDM//T3+PXNHovZWVjsGHRltg5VNYbINkn 1dsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=4XgNw1PEdy/Q9sdN6HE9iV4vjUZdWfkzc1P2jN0YO2Q=; b=lIfdsBPRBhktqi7uPwkRbcHRX5U9qrvznbDkmvhyFnTOuXtsNS9AOnVdfQfho9qzy/ j4RQl44m4quLDiJ6qRsR962wg9NM9pKsYiQEM1BGujojVqzK6jYR9O0MXmPHY28xIE4j ML4Crl9l3unoiMgRFrBMzfxXIaH+/zCgLXV59QzkqPd6X62g8c6TkxoM2/RWQKpoe7cs Agf9pcvCh7rmVK/jbvy+HGFsQsizOzme4+zZ0G1J15zfSEb2lgbNOsP3r1jBt2S0K8Uy V9APrbWl1WKdfV9BEdUI228ZJUClBCuByYgL7ZDkTaetlPrT0Fu5JsKAV9BdgrBgHuzd PDzw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK4aCWMqUU+KL6bLjPRVQCa3zxkMvADz0aUo3wkhuVcWTUeGNk+UF4UOL0bd+0vjw== X-Received: by 10.36.248.6 with SMTP id a6mr7075001ith.25.1468065300394; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 04:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zony (206-188-64-44.cpe.distributel.net. [206.188.64.44]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id o15sm2702421ith.2.2016.07.09.04.54.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 04:54:59 -0700 (PDT) From: npostavs@HIDDEN References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:54:58 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:13:00 +0300") Message-ID: <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) retitle 23926 defcustom with STANDARD=<non-constant-expression> gives confusing results quit Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> >> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:11:02 -0400 >> >> A trivial example: >> >> (defcustom time (current-time-string) >> "the time" >> :type 'string) >> >> Then try to M-x customize-options RET time RET, it will show with >> state "CHANGED outside Customize." Similarly, doing <f1> v time RET >> shows the "original value" as the current time, not the actual value >> when `time' was defined. > > Why is this a bug? Seems to be expected behavior to me. Yeah, it seems expected because you're familiar with the code. But it causes Emacs to claim the "original" value is different from what it originally was, which seems nonsensical. I wonder why Emacs saves only the original expression and not the actual original value?
Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 11:55:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 09 07:55:08 2016 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43287 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLqqi-0005ea-3Q for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:55:08 -0400 Received: from mail-it0-f54.google.com ([209.85.214.54]:35020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLqqg-0005dz-8E; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:55:06 -0400 Received: by mail-it0-f54.google.com with SMTP id u186so28358672ita.0; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 04:55:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=4XgNw1PEdy/Q9sdN6HE9iV4vjUZdWfkzc1P2jN0YO2Q=; b=bJbKGKV1nr67TVLUaiqeHNHirLbHdnriq7WniXV/CHHx55cH34x3L9W/IIQ1XNyZA6 +c/hDA9ehKP6iV45f7dejcq788DOqVyO7pjAgOr9lXBvMe0I/KK+sSZv73Yjm5iqTxJG tBbIfLUaNr9LdIW9Es5XDDSCkStj596VNEhcUZobzm0roMDjz0EnwOgrcQZw6sIMpywp 9eEgs+lHrZpqXR4fp/B7G2gXqcdorhrPKcO7aBi3sRp5JHZvCsz+SV4REzYjT9yqYSdC YDwb7vDYNqYGlFsI+2R6eM+P104dNmhc7SIDM//T3+PXNHovZWVjsGHRltg5VNYbINkn 1dsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=4XgNw1PEdy/Q9sdN6HE9iV4vjUZdWfkzc1P2jN0YO2Q=; b=lIfdsBPRBhktqi7uPwkRbcHRX5U9qrvznbDkmvhyFnTOuXtsNS9AOnVdfQfho9qzy/ j4RQl44m4quLDiJ6qRsR962wg9NM9pKsYiQEM1BGujojVqzK6jYR9O0MXmPHY28xIE4j ML4Crl9l3unoiMgRFrBMzfxXIaH+/zCgLXV59QzkqPd6X62g8c6TkxoM2/RWQKpoe7cs Agf9pcvCh7rmVK/jbvy+HGFsQsizOzme4+zZ0G1J15zfSEb2lgbNOsP3r1jBt2S0K8Uy V9APrbWl1WKdfV9BEdUI228ZJUClBCuByYgL7ZDkTaetlPrT0Fu5JsKAV9BdgrBgHuzd PDzw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK4aCWMqUU+KL6bLjPRVQCa3zxkMvADz0aUo3wkhuVcWTUeGNk+UF4UOL0bd+0vjw== X-Received: by 10.36.248.6 with SMTP id a6mr7075001ith.25.1468065300394; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 04:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zony (206-188-64-44.cpe.distributel.net. [206.188.64.44]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id o15sm2702421ith.2.2016.07.09.04.54.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 04:54:59 -0700 (PDT) From: npostavs@HIDDEN To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:54:58 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:13:00 +0300") Message-ID: <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) retitle 23926 defcustom with STANDARD=<non-constant-expression> gives confusing results quit Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> >> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:11:02 -0400 >> >> A trivial example: >> >> (defcustom time (current-time-string) >> "the time" >> :type 'string) >> >> Then try to M-x customize-options RET time RET, it will show with >> state "CHANGED outside Customize." Similarly, doing <f1> v time RET >> shows the "original value" as the current time, not the actual value >> when `time' was defined. > > Why is this a bug? Seems to be expected behavior to me. Yeah, it seems expected because you're familiar with the code. But it causes Emacs to claim the "original" value is different from what it originally was, which seems nonsensical. I wonder why Emacs saves only the original expression and not the actual original value?
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146806752032058 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: npostavs@HIDDEN Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146806752032058 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 12:32:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43311 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLrQO-0008Kz-Cg for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:32:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39767) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLrQN-0008Kn-GS for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:31:59 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLrQF-0000hD-Bf for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:31:54 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:39281) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLrQF-0000gz-9U; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:31:51 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1660 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLrQD-0006QS-5y; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:31:49 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 15:31:42 +0300 Message-Id: <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> (npostavs@HIDDEN) References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > From: npostavs@HIDDEN > Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:54:58 -0400 > > Yeah, it seems expected because you're familiar with the code. But it > causes Emacs to claim the "original" value is different from what it > originally was, which seems nonsensical. It's not nonsensical, it's what actually happens, AFAIK. > I wonder why Emacs saves only the original expression and not the > actual original value? It does, but then it reevaluates at startup.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:56:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14680689571718 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14680689571718 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:56:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 12:55:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43320 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLrnY-0000Re-QH for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:55:56 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f48.google.com ([209.85.218.48]:34069) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLrnW-0000RP-KY for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:55:54 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f48.google.com with SMTP id s66so93302852oif.1 for <23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 05:55:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=g7HdK46q7+d+Od+WhkdxOmiQipIBUrqMseEFJRWPjKE=; b=j6BOLecOl0gwo91CyeoBAAq6hfREjkN/9aE2HvNAgJJHtJ1AWEIjjAvdcgjOk4b54+ 6i0h9HhKNmcKiXVFZ+w2kicQXC6+RjwKu2WuzJNjKeFHwSwcuXc2VRGeNBRmHx0ZWk45 1gLYSzJ0qZNw9bKXvgGROTnO3fD+AffQVUfkMxrmunBcIMyVhcHZmIE8ksewrE4sZlhk BIx6tl3zqbh2M6OSxGp59tqK4hepf60D/j+fq1pXyVhYJwqfYiBbLofiAK08hFT3EbKf HX/FwZ+c7/3cMB4z5gXT/VCPYLcjRBjaYljIQue5TaYkZ6xvs8kWJqW33TA4+T19DcEy 6rRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g7HdK46q7+d+Od+WhkdxOmiQipIBUrqMseEFJRWPjKE=; b=ZWt9uXCfiX6UNPSQyOLPbVYArvNhT8M3l5gJIeJ9/Te72OvrWopmpW4ZrRpugX2VML +Ps68Q8q0vMegmTWwdgmC+hqch2lTAr9J4qzHYXXKwvZ9TDcke3aBvk7IRAXUqcGT62m MzpQWac97QKHHoUGozorLZfFfhk6A55pQpP/feT6RDTJm4dvaO0QfcjPLbtVpvgycXpH l0EUdXekyVxS84ycMKwlHaWKMXumMvqU4JtR0An8lu8RQY07EsQZ8y6FeUEtkk/hEQrZ /iPQ5fPkwPGrEN6ENAJ2YcHk6G7zLEKuI+8qq4TtXRCP0AMKw8BF3h1rNhtq830FmGZn tUcA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL/PkM0aArNxrKwoeOJBxZzZMLU6s0EqxapiTNpSUl8jFzWmntxwILXXyCvZxoSO0N/xRpACO53vECpZA== X-Received: by 10.202.102.75 with SMTP id a72mr1194789oic.40.1468068948920; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 05:55:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.4.197 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 05:55:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:55:48 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4ToVXoUNU6ETnUQWNNb6qXYU4vM Message-ID: <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: >> From: npostavs@HIDDEN >> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:54:58 -0400 >> >> Yeah, it seems expected because you're familiar with the code. But it >> causes Emacs to claim the "original" value is different from what it >> originally was, which seems nonsensical. > > It's not nonsensical, it's what actually happens, AFAIK. What actually happens is that Emacs goes back in time to change what the original value was? Perhaps the dates in etc/future-bug are wrong then ;) > >> I wonder why Emacs saves only the original expression and not the >> actual original value? > > It does, but then it reevaluates at startup. It seems it's also reevaluated every time the variable is looked at with customize, or describe-variable.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 13:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14680700863484 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14680700863484 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 13:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 13:14:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43343 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLs5m-0000u7-CU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:14:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:49369) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLs5k-0000tt-No for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:14:44 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLs5c-0000r0-5B for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:14:39 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:39946) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLs5c-0000qt-1t; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:14:36 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1690 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLs5Z-0007Np-Ux; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:14:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:14:27 +0300 Message-Id: <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> (message from Noam Postavsky on Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:55:48 -0400) References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:55:48 -0400 > Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > >> From: npostavs@HIDDEN > >> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > >> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:54:58 -0400 > >> > >> Yeah, it seems expected because you're familiar with the code. But it > >> causes Emacs to claim the "original" value is different from what it > >> originally was, which seems nonsensical. > > > > It's not nonsensical, it's what actually happens, AFAIK. > > What actually happens is that Emacs goes back in time to change what > the original value was? No, that's the plan for Emacs 42. For now, we just compare to the previous recorded value (computed at dump time, I presume). > >> I wonder why Emacs saves only the original expression and not the > >> actual original value? > > > > It does, but then it reevaluates at startup. > > It seems it's also reevaluated every time the variable is looked at > with customize, or describe-variable. Quite possibly, we reevaluate a defcustom when in doubt. The question is, given the above, do we need to actually do anything with this report, except close it?
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 13:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807210612618 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807210612618 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 13:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 13:48:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43351 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLscM-0003HS-IP for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:48:26 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f45.google.com ([209.85.218.45]:34652) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLscK-0003HF-94 for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:48:25 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f45.google.com with SMTP id s66so94325645oif.1 for <23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 06:48:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=0EDLzxUgd3DF4YhxuEcVnXDi5ix0e4xJqbhN3oBwaNo=; b=Ps8laQ65CZsTiCblizbSzP6kmqdnLNjl1p7Ws0VxaDRBTGzAWDKoSVey089Qzl3nUv fOye33ezrUYnSobfJcAtmFXDZK3/41TcKzdkLl2PuBYIBTOiU5OChI/bjWfucisAiZIP lQWdvlKWMKAia956sfUYrdeuvE4HzJ7fq5qPbM/UTsO0MJqGQleynVbdLGv29nHkBgdQ fJ5bBkrxvLgro6ylMmtwEIg34tC86Ysb8arbFgDl/cIHaLfxMRmWLEuP1+wrcsGzSfZX mgZQa87vZeB/NrapYLjvRzyskIViqxDkb7b4pS4t3P7x/VCb1jGdN+FiGt20JG4HLoZe 64Ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0EDLzxUgd3DF4YhxuEcVnXDi5ix0e4xJqbhN3oBwaNo=; b=mLfDZOGfgUx2HBVIfpeVgNCDP3BMYNpOwQhMjID/c7JY9tTmQt0EGnJRtQFCOliyHa 1lF0nNX+Xbz7ydF1ZidZa5vcHOPn+q0aen5z8l6CePENJuyHWQs5rIlW+e3i6pw4FacM QLdCU80XSJt3Pd0l8fvNNwp0f+tLdy+KyEAbKMeHwPSkdzHnXHynaK3qxI7UyRfbqDxH DxcvByw7R1YSJ29ctDmKb6S3al1gH2oJOJb2yqTEmhrC0F0bPcNGm/CSqGG235IOMdIU VVq7r2OHu5CxYyJyGUXrsiFVyKJfoABDXElLen1bO/nPkvW5gAYL/A75ItAomYEYajr2 +Qlg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKi1xdeyOOSOxCUgbPL4T+9d2nEBjjoIXAe0dnAbcM77FJkD9DP12Sdb6dyk00m+pVU5Sene/jWuOjmRA== X-Received: by 10.157.17.2 with SMTP id g2mr6109228ote.196.1468072098569; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 06:48:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.4.197 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 06:48:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 09:48:18 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 48YPA9ZGdS77DAdIjgd8SH4vHJs Message-ID: <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > For now, we just compare to the > previous recorded value (computed at dump time, I presume). Dump time? This doesn't apply to non-preloaded libraries though, right? > >> >> I wonder why Emacs saves only the original expression and not the >> >> actual original value? >> > >> > It does, but then it reevaluates at startup. >> >> It seems it's also reevaluated every time the variable is looked at >> with customize, or describe-variable. > > Quite possibly, we reevaluate a defcustom when in doubt. > > The question is, given the above, do we need to actually do anything > with this report, except close it? Either really save the original value, or don't call it the "original value". We can't use "default value" because that's already used for the non-buffer local value, unfortunately. I think "standard value" could work, though Drew said it was unclear.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807304314872 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807304314872 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:04:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44232 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLsrT-0003ri-9B for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:04:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55661) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLsrR-0003qq-BU for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:04:01 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLsrI-00033f-UY for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:03:56 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40519) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLsrI-00033S-Rf; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:03:52 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1737 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLsrD-0004Mn-Hx; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:03:49 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 17:03:39 +0300 Message-Id: <8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN> (message from Noam Postavsky on Sat, 9 Jul 2016 09:48:18 -0400) References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 09:48:18 -0400 > Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > > For now, we just compare to the > > previous recorded value (computed at dump time, I presume). > > Dump time? This doesn't apply to non-preloaded libraries though, right? Right. > > The question is, given the above, do we need to actually do anything > > with this report, except close it? > > Either really save the original value, or don't call it the "original > value". We can't use "default value" because that's already used for > the non-buffer local value, unfortunately. I think "standard value" > could work, though Drew said it was unclear. Why change anything in the wording at all? It won't really change what is being done, and won't prevent any confusion, because all this "standard", "original", "default" etc. are not well defined anyway.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:10:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807336915321 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807336915321 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:10:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:09:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44236 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLswi-0003z3-W4 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:09:29 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:43123) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bLswh-0003yq-DN for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:09:27 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u69E9KKh018423 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:21 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69E9KBr022556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:20 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u69E9JeI020361; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:17 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>> <<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>> In-Reply-To: <<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > > (defcustom time (current-time-string) "the time" :type 'string) > > > > Then try to M-x customize-options RET time RET, it will show with > > state "CHANGED outside Customize." Similarly, doing <f1> v time RET > > shows the "original value" as the current time, not the actual value > > when `time' was defined. >=20 > Why is this a bug? Seems to be expected behavior to me. Noam can provide his explanation. For my part: 1. The "original value" shown by `C-h v' is not the original value. In fact, it might never have been the value of the variable, and it might never become its value. This much is a doc problem. What is shown is the result of evaluating, in the current context, the original, defining Lisp sexp. And if this is really what we want to show then it would be good to also show what that Lisp sexp is. If it is large then provide a button/link to show it completely. And it might be good to also show the actual original value, i.e., the value when the variable was first set, however it was set. (The original value could have been set without evaluating the original Lisp sexp of the defcustom.) 2. Is it not a bug that Customize tells you that the value was changed outside Customize? In what way was it changed outside Customize? In fact, it was not even changed. How about the reverse: Why do you think this is not a bug? What is expected about the behavior "changed outside" or the behavior of saying that the "original value" is something different from the original value?
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807355115584 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@HIDDEN Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807355115584 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:13:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:12:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44240 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLszf-00043H-GZ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:12:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57028) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLsze-000437-QF for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:12:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLszW-0004lx-HX for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:12:25 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40648) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLszW-0004lt-Cq; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:12:22 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1743 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLszS-0002Ro-Ot; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:12:19 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 17:12:11 +0300 Message-Id: <8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:17 +0000 (UTC)) References: <<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>> <<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>> <443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:17 +0000 (UTC) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > 2. Is it not a bug that Customize tells you that the value > was changed outside Customize? In what way was it > changed outside Customize? In fact, it was not even > changed. It was changed, because each time the sexp is evaluated it yields a different value. "Outside Customize" means not by the user who is typing values into the Custom buffer and saves those values by using the "set state" menu. > How about the reverse: Why do you think this is not a bug? See above.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:35:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807485417497 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807485417497 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:35:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:34:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44247 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLtKg-0004Y8-CL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:34:14 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:50438) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bLtKf-0004Xw-JD for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:34:13 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u69EY5s2027457 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:05 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69EY3kE018370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:04 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69EY1Zd028914; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:02 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <f5553151-5e5a-4e98-8b2b-23af63b81cb2@default> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:00 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > Either really save the original value, or don't call it the "original > value". We can't use "default value" because that's already used for > the non-buffer local value, unfortunately. I think "standard value" > could work, though Drew said it was unclear. If it is what custom calls the "standard value", which is what you get when you `Reset to Standard Setting', then I don't think it is wrong to use that name here. But I think that `C-h v' - or at a minimum somewhere in the manual - should point out what is happening here: The value shown is the result of re-evaluating, in the current context, the original expression that was used to define the initial value. Each part of that sentence is important to understanding what this is. We should not just suppose that all of that is understood by a user, just by providing a label such as "standard value" (let alone a misleading label such as "original value"). It's OK to just provide a (reasonable) label, I guess, _if_ it is clearly defined somewhere in the doc. I really think that it would be good to show in `C-h v' (also), the original expression. That is available in Customize (good), by choosing `Show Saved Lisp Expression'. But if we are going to show, in `C-h v', what is currently called "original value" there, then we should (1) use a better name for it (e.g. "standard value") and (2) provide also the expression that it was re-evaluated from. As for how to show that expression: if small, show it inline; if large, show it on demand (e.g. clicking an expand button).
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:55:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807607019353 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807607019353 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:55:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:54:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44265 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLteI-000525-4C for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:54:30 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:17483) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bLteG-00051r-Dm for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:54:28 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u69EsLQ1007677 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:54:22 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69EsKT9016500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:54:21 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69EsJAE023105; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:54:20 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <fdca925b-a904-48fb-bc53-425dd59e10cf@default> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:54:18 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>> <<87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN>> <<8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN>> In-Reply-To: <<8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > Why change anything in the wording at all? It won't really change > what is being done, and won't prevent any confusion, because all this > "standard", "original", "default" etc. are not well defined anyway. Maybe you mean that they have not been well defined in our help for the user? Because the standard value is well defined in Customize, and it is referred to as such in the Customize UI. ("Original" and "default" are admittedly not so well defined.) What's missing is to call it by the same name in `C-h v'. And to provide some description/explanation in the doc, if it is not there now (I haven't searched just now). IOW, let's try to be clear with the labelling in `C-h v' - consistent with the names used in Customize. And let's try to let users of `C-h v' get more info about what they're looking at, to dispel confusion and answer questions. I think we should also have `C-h v' provide the underlying Lisp expression, at least on demand, just as Customize does. It's not great to show only a value without any indication of what it comes from. As for whether to call the value shown "standard value": IIUC, the standard value is: ;; the value given in the 'defcustom' declaration. ;; It is stored in the 'standard-value' property of the ;; option, in a cons-cell whose car evaluates to the standard ;; value. That wording is maybe not perfect. But IIUC, the value of the `standard-value' property is not the "standard value". Instead, it is a cons whose car _evaluates_ to the standard value. Its car is, I guess, the original Lisp expression from the defcustom. That is what needs to be made clear to users, I think, when showing them a value. Let them know that it is called the "standard value", and it is the result of re-evaluating, in the current context, the defining Lisp sexp for the option (which is used in the defcustom).=20 All of this is important for clarity. In particular, I think it is important that users understand the following, which is I guess what is behind Eli saying that the behavior is as expected: ;; The reason for storing values unevaluated: This is so you can have ;; values that depend on the environment. For example, you can have a ;; variable that has one value when Emacs is running under a window ;; system, and another value on a tty. Since the evaluation is only done ;; when the variable is first initialized, this is only relevant for the ;; saved (and standard) values, but affect others values for ;; compatibility. The premise of that last sentence is wrong, of course. It is done each time you use `C-h v' - to show you the "original" value. But the main point here is that it is a _feature_, not a bug, that the "standard value" is recomputed at any time from the original sexp. Why/how this is a feature is explained well in that paragraph. But without such an explanation, and especially just showing a value in `C-h v' and calling it the "original" value, we hurt instead of help users. ;; You can see (and modify and save) this unevaluated value by selecting ;; "Show Saved Lisp Expression" from the Lisp interface. This will ;; give you the unevaluated saved value, if any, otherwise the ;; unevaluated standard value. And that's the other piece that helps understanding. I think `C-h v' should show users that Lisp sexp - at least on demand. That will also help understanding of the standard value that is shown (and should be labeled as such): `C-h v' can say that this is the result of re-evaluating the Lisp sexp.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 15:00:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807635719808 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@HIDDEN Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807635719808 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 15:00:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:59:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44274 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLtiv-00059Q-Kk for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:59:17 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:18124) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bLtiu-00059C-FX for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:59:16 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u69ExAtr010596 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:59:10 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69ExAJ7022000 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:59:10 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69Ex8u4002858; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:59:09 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:59:06 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>> <<<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <<8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>> In-Reply-To: <<8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > > 2. Is it not a bug that Customize tells you that the value > > was changed outside Customize? In what way was it > > changed outside Customize? In fact, it was not even > > changed. >=20 > It was changed,=20 The option value was changed? I don't think so. The standard value (labeled "original" in `C-h v') is changed each time the sexp is evaluated. But the option value is not. The option value was not changed at all in the recipe Noam gave. It was and remained exactly what it was from the defcustom. The mere fact of entering Customize did not change its value, and nothing else changed its value. It still has the original value from when the defcustom was evaluated. > because each time the sexp is evaluated it yields a > different value. See above. > "Outside Customize" means not by the user who is typing values > into the Custom buffer and saves those values by using the > "set state" menu. Correct. And nothing changed the option value at all. Not that way or any other way. It remains as it was from defcustom. > > How about the reverse: Why do you think this is not a bug? >=20 > See above. See above. Do you still think this is not a bug?
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 15:10:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146807697020785 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807697020785 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 15:10:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 15:09:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44287 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLtso-0005PB-1n for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 11:09:30 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51454) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bLtsm-0005Oy-G8 for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 11:09:29 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u69F9J7i024770 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 15:09:19 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69F9InH010203 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 15:09:19 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u69F9Hr6004819; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 15:09:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <bb67bf97-6507-4f94-bf7a-eccdc1bd087e@default> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 15:09:16 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>> <<87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN>> <<8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN>> <fdca925b-a904-48fb-bc53-425dd59e10cf@default> In-Reply-To: <fdca925b-a904-48fb-bc53-425dd59e10cf@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) Note, BTW, that this erroneous display of "original value" by `C-h v' is not something that has been in Emacs long. It was added in Emacs 24.1. It should have been corrected sooner than now, but it wasn't. Now is a good time.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:53:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14680831773752 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@HIDDEN Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14680831773752 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:53:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 16:52:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44315 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLvUv-0000yR-Jo for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:52:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLvUt-0000yD-Jp for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:52:55 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLvUk-0005Tz-5T for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:52:50 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43688) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLvUk-0005Tf-2G; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:52:46 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1894 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bLvUh-0002yr-V5; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:52:44 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 19:52:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:59:06 +0000 (UTC)) References: <<<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>> <<<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <<8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>> <c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:59:06 +0000 (UTC) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > Cc: npostavs@HIDDEN, 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > 2. Is it not a bug that Customize tells you that the value > > > was changed outside Customize? In what way was it > > > changed outside Customize? In fact, it was not even > > > changed. > > > > It was changed, > > The option value was changed? I don't think so. Yes, it was changed, because the value returned by the function changes each time it's called. > See above. Do you still think this is not a bug? Of course, I do. Maybe you don't realize how many times Emacs evaluates the value of a defcustom, but I do.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: npostavs@HIDDEN Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 20:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14680973145985 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14680973145985 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 20:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 20:48:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44406 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bLzAw-0001YT-HY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:48:34 -0400 Received: from mail-it0-f50.google.com ([209.85.214.50]:36919) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bLzAs-0001YC-UU for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:48:32 -0400 Received: by mail-it0-f50.google.com with SMTP id f6so28899819ith.0 for <23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 13:48:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=mHiTSUr0Xlt69bDUH5EtNP+bGmuIuwzjUucoBR9j9Pk=; b=IRRu933nlxVH2wALGZhnyz2EgCUZcIsHSWdD4I69qTut11Dk0Rm0pDH4EHVZXfxqVg ilkXev36rbfXT3q7xoRLs13jpzw0ebb/pRLQAf+0fWqYi3JG1F2kqvDAO+nspQhJGU9w Kgg3MZ7vqNTOUaAwdeRi/9lWcRb/3Vyd0fEaC4eZ8P2tPD7RdjWTaFzu5MQpXbjmbcym SgH3iW99QCVZ990+e7Ez9pWLhPynWiCzMFKjTVYSSuyqB7e0YQtjnwn5/F3eOqqcejak uOAZum8/KM2S1tyqPmsr1VEffTcvM7MFbyx7t6z9KMULVeqQVABbwyU39GyTUzUgXhEh HWlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=mHiTSUr0Xlt69bDUH5EtNP+bGmuIuwzjUucoBR9j9Pk=; b=dil40sBcXUw3raWE7pP7gZcT9AXkFOckOpQZJD+Ghfn4MicvOSO0qgSAAgIED0Zufc HKvU5FItI63uFAtUNrdYIysZxkP53z7B0GbSTbqeKkvepQ41OMr7pXzM9WEvEcwuj21t KXu3IvEed1Wzipi5Ycqd79uK2y4Tj2pZvGG0yaVYSneQsQJDOUOxx2tcyehh2PthzUzg wo4j1Fi8bPYbT0JyAzs2XK7l3zxGeIR6oP3R5qagThbnqg4c8Ezb5Km/2nqDrw+y31vY nQGA5Lab/rDmcKlWIsufnDRtI/4OmUWY/FmyBOUX30I1py/6yFrrkqLU7nK8hoWUyHE4 qkqA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJFNa4LA20CCXci+JT2HrytSkrJEkdiocqvGI5CpIRO7L/lbHq4wxpbxpuhRuWWug== X-Received: by 10.36.69.4 with SMTP id y4mr4088989ita.49.1468097305436; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 13:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zony (206-188-64-44.cpe.distributel.net. [206.188.64.44]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w78sm4068610ita.3.2016.07.09.13.48.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT) From: npostavs@HIDDEN References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>> <c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default> <83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:48:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 09 Jul 2016 19:52:36 +0300") Message-ID: <871t32ilm0.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Of course, I do. Maybe you don't realize how many times Emacs > evaluates the value of a defcustom, but I do. What about making Emacs evaluate it less? e.g. replace occurences of (eval (car (get var 'standard-value))) with (or (get var 'original-value) (let ((val (eval (car (get var 'standard-value))))) (put var 'original-value val) val)) Wrapped in a function of course, call it custom-get-standard-value?
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 14:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146816036925421 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: npostavs@HIDDEN Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@HIDDEN Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146816036925421 (code B ref 23926); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 14:20:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jul 2016 14:19:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45196 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMFZw-0006bv-MU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:19:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36396) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMFZu-0006bi-UE for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:19:27 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMFZo-0002BR-OZ for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:19:21 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:56125) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMFZo-0002BN-LC; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:19:20 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2831 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMFZn-00082C-Sj; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:19:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:15 +0300 Message-Id: <83k2gtfue4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <871t32ilm0.fsf@HIDDEN> (npostavs@HIDDEN) References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>> <c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default> <83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN> <871t32ilm0.fsf@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > From: npostavs@HIDDEN > Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:48:23 -0400 > > > Of course, I do. Maybe you don't realize how many times Emacs > > evaluates the value of a defcustom, but I do. > > What about making Emacs evaluate it less? e.g. replace occurences of > (eval (car (get var 'standard-value))) with > > (or (get var 'original-value) > (let ((val (eval (car (get var 'standard-value))))) > (put var 'original-value val) > val)) What will that do to the likes of custom-reevaluate-setting? FWIW, I wouldn't try making any such changes in this area. The number of evaluations and the precise triggers for evaluating a defcustom is a fragile setup, and I'd hate breaking it. Certainly not for a marginal use case such as the one in this report. In effect, whoever uses current-time-string as a defcustom's value tells Emacs that the value is not important, because the programmer has no idea when in the process of building and restarting Emacs will the value be taken. Why does it make sense to rock the boat in this sensitive area for such use cases?
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14681711182670 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, npostavs@HIDDEN Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14681711182670 (code B ref 23926); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jul 2016 17:18:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45494 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMINK-0000h0-5S for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:18:38 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:39571) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bMINI-0000gg-PY for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:18:37 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u6AHITrG000368 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:30 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6AHITl3020409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:29 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u6AHISRF021365; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:28 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <39c015f2-3ebf-43e8-9a37-9b50382042a7@default> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>>> <<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <<c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default> <83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN>> <<871t32ilm0.fsf@HIDDEN>> <<83k2gtfue4.fsf@HIDDEN>> In-Reply-To: <<83k2gtfue4.fsf@HIDDEN>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > whoever uses current-time-string as a defcustom's value tells Emacs that > the value is not important, because the programmer has no idea when in > the process of building and restarting Emacs will the value be taken. > Why does it make sense to rock the boat in this sensitive area for such > use cases? Obviously, `(current-time)' was an example, to demo show the problem. It can sometimes make a lot of sense for a defcustom to use a sexp that might not return the same result when reevaluated. The original bug, from which this report is an offshoot, was #4755. The example there used this defcustom sexp: `(copy-sequence foo)'. And in the context of the using code there is nothing wrong with such a sexp: the intention is really to use, as default value, a (new) list whose elements are the (exact same) elements as those in the list `foo'. And yes, this (intentionally) means that the user option, `toto', that has this value can share the objects that are its initial elements. Nothing wrong with using such an initial value for a user option. The problem is not with being able to make use of such a sexp for the default value. The problem is with how Emacs talks about the state of the option value. It miscommunicates to users. That's what this bug is about: how Emacs talks about what is going on.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14681711212680 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@HIDDEN Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14681711212680 (code B ref 23926); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jul 2016 17:18:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45496 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMINN-0000hA-Bt for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:18:41 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:39575) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bMINJ-0000gi-JF for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:18:38 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u6AHIVEG000418 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:31 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6AHIVSO026760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:31 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6AHIVle015090; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:31 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <ff33c2cc-337a-433b-a87a-0ea1814311d2@default> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<<<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>>> <<<<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>>> <<<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>>> <<<8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <<c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default>> <<83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN>> In-Reply-To: <<83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > > > > 2. Is it not a bug that Customize tells you that the value > > > > was changed outside Customize? In what way was it > > > > changed outside Customize? In fact, it was not even > > > > changed. > > > > > > It was changed, > > > > The option value was changed? I don't think so. >=20 > Yes, it was changed, because the value returned by the function > changes each time it's called. What function? And what occurrence of calling it do you think is responsible for this characterization of the value having been changed outside Customize? The fact is that the user did NOT change the value outside customize. And in fact, the value has NOT been changed. It is what it was when the defcustom was evaluated. The responsible code is `custom-variable-state', specifically this part: (setq tmp (get symbol 'standard-value)) (if (condition-case nil (and (equal value (eval (car tmp))) (equal comment nil)) (error nil)) 'standard 'changed) That tests whether the current value (var VALUE here), which in this case came from (default-value 'time), is equal to the result of RE-evaluating the defining defcustom sexp, (current-time). And of course it is not equal, because time passes... The reason it is not unequal is NOT because something has changed the option value outside Customize. The option value has not been changed at all. What "changes" here is the result of evaluating the initial sexp. IOW, the "changed-outside-Customize" test used is too simplistic. =20 Note that the code does try to correct its own logic in some cases - for example, in this case: ;; The value was originally set outside ;; custom, but it was set to the standard ;; value (probably an autoloaded defcustom). This but shows another case where its too-simplistic logic trips it up, but this case is not being handled (compensated for). Nothing, including anything the user has done, has changed the value outside Customize. But the customize code is, so far, unable to recognize that. The code blithely assumes that evaluating what `custom-get' returns represents the original value, whereas what it returns is the result of RE-evaluating the original sexp. That is precisely the point of this bug. The code correctly compensates in the case mentioned in the comment cited above. But it does not compensate in the case demonstrated by the simple recipe Noam provided: (defcustom time (current-time-string) "the time" :type 'string) A _single_ evaluation of that defcustom should not throw Customize off into thinking that the value has been changed outside Customize. And that is what is happening, because its determination of "changed outside Customize" is too simplistic. > > See above. Do you still think this is not a bug? >=20 > Of course, I do. Maybe you don't realize how many times > Emacs evaluates the value of a defcustom, but I do. Please don't patronize us. Everyone respects your understanding of Emacs and Customize, but in this case I think you are wrong. It is not a question of "how many times Emacs evaluates the value of a defcustom". It is about Emacs interpreting a difference in the value returned by evaluating the defcustom defining sexp from the current value as always representing a change in the value of the variable (and outside Customize, to boot). I think we understand what is happening. For us, telling the user that the value has CHANGED from its original setting is clearly wrong, since the VALUE has not changed. And saying that it was changed outside Customize is doubly wrong, since no user code or user action has done anything to the value anywhere, including outside Customize. This is Customize stepping stepping on its own feet, and as a result misleading users. As for _fixing_ this part of the bug (the misleading state): I don't see a solution other than doing either of these, but other ideas are welcome: 1. Save also the original _value_ and compare the current value with that, instead of with the result of reevaluating the standard-value sexp. 2. Try to better characterize the state to users. Instead of calling it changed-outside-customize, somehow indicate what it really means: the current value is not the same as what you get by reevaluating the defining sexp. And then there is the other part of this bug: what to do for `C-h v'. I'll speak to that in a separate reply.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:24:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14681714043165 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14681714043165 (code B ref 23926); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:24:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jul 2016 17:23:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45505 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMIRw-0000oz-Af for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:23:24 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:40005) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bMIRt-0000ol-P5 for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:23:22 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u6AHNFSQ003134 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:23:15 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6AHNF79025731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:23:15 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6AHNEMw017682; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:23:14 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <33b89b73-733f-42a1-9d26-eb0ed3c8d9cc@default> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>> <<87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN>> <<8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN>> <fdca925b-a904-48fb-bc53-425dd59e10cf@default> In-Reply-To: <fdca925b-a904-48fb-bc53-425dd59e10cf@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > IOW, let's try to be clear with the labelling in `C-h v' - > consistent with the names used in Customize. And let's try to > let users of `C-h v' get more info about what they're looking > at, to dispel confusion and answer questions. >=20 > I think we should also have `C-h v' provide the underlying > Lisp expression, at least on demand, just as Customize does. > It's not great to show only a value without any indication > of what it comes from. ... > That is what needs to be made clear to users, I think, when > showing them a value. Let them know that it is called the > "standard value", and it is the result of re-evaluating, in > the current context, the defining Lisp sexp for the option > (which is used in the defcustom). >=20 > All of this is important for clarity. In particular, I think > it is important that users understand the following, which is > I guess what is behind Eli saying that the behavior is as > expected: >=20 > ;; The reason for storing values unevaluated: This is so you can have > ;; values that depend on the environment. For example, you can have a > ;; variable that has one value when Emacs is running under a window > ;; system, and another value on a tty. Since the evaluation is only done > ;; when the variable is first initialized, this is only relevant for the > ;; saved (and standard) values, but affect others values for > ;; compatibility. >=20 > The premise of that last sentence is wrong, of course. It is done > each time you use `C-h v' - to show you the "original" value. >=20 > But the main point here is that it is a _feature_, not a bug, that > the "standard value" is recomputed at any time from the original sexp. > Why/how this is a feature is explained well in that paragraph. >=20 > But without such an explanation, and especially just showing a > value in `C-h v' and calling it the "original" value, we hurt > instead of help users. >=20 > ;; You can see (and modify and save) this unevaluated value by selecting > ;; "Show Saved Lisp Expression" from the Lisp interface. This will > ;; give you the unevaluated saved value, if any, otherwise the > ;; unevaluated standard value. >=20 > And that's the other piece that helps understanding. I think > `C-h v' should show users that Lisp sexp - at least on demand. >=20 > That will also help understanding of the standard value that is > shown (and should be labeled as such): `C-h v' can say that this > is the result of re-evaluating the Lisp sexp. Here are a couple proposals for how to fix the `C-h v' part of this bug. Others are welcome. 1. Not print the "original value" at all, as was the case before Emacs 24. Let users get such info from Customize. 2. Like #1, but give users a hint that such info is in fact available from Customize. My suggestion here would be to not only remove printing the "original value" but to change the text "You can customize this variable.", where `customize' is a link to Customize, with this text, all of it a link with the same target: Customize or inspect (or possibly "Inspect or customize"). The point is for the link text to indicate that the target (Customize for the option) is not only for changing the value but also for finding out more about the option and its customization. 3. Like #1 and #3, but also provide a (toggle) link to show the defining Lisp sexp for the default value or, if it is shown, to reevaluate it and show the result: Show Lisp sexp defining the default value (if not shown) and Reevaluate (if shown - displayed just above it, in place of "Show Lisp sexp defining the default value"). I think any of these would improve the `C-h v' doc, especially for this situation where the Lisp sexp can return different values. If you decide to go for any of these approaches I could work on a patch. (Note that this mail is only about the `C-h v' part of the bug. It does not address the part that concerns how the Customize UI talks about the state - see my previous message about that part.)
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14682624636179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@HIDDEN Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14682624636179 (code B ref 23926); Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jul 2016 18:41:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47203 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMg8d-0001bb-9v for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:41:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52781) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMg8b-0001ax-By for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:41:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMg8S-0000D0-7E for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:40:56 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51742) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMg8S-0000CL-41; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:40:52 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4081 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMg8O-00021l-90; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:40:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 21:40:16 +0300 Message-Id: <83d1mkc92n.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <39c015f2-3ebf-43e8-9a37-9b50382042a7@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT)) References: <<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>>> <<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <<c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default> <83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN>> <<871t32ilm0.fsf@HIDDEN>> <<83k2gtfue4.fsf@HIDDEN>> <39c015f2-3ebf-43e8-9a37-9b50382042a7@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > It can sometimes make a lot of sense for a defcustom to use a sexp > that might not return the same result when reevaluated. One way to do that while avoiding the issue at hand is to define a 'set' function to do the job, instead of doing it explicitly in the initialization value. > The original bug, from which this report is an offshoot, was #4755. > The example there used this defcustom sexp: `(copy-sequence foo)'. > > And in the context of the using code there is nothing wrong with > such a sexp: the intention is really to use, as default value, a > (new) list whose elements are the (exact same) elements as those > in the list `foo'. I guess it's crystal-clear now what's wrong with such a sexp. > The problem is not with being able to make use of such a sexp for > the default value. The problem is with how Emacs talks about the > state of the option value. It miscommunicates to users. That's > what this bug is about: how Emacs talks about what is going on. Emacs says the truth: the value of the defcustom was changed behind Customize's back. And since I've already said all that once before, let's stop going in circles. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:54:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14682631837355 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@HIDDEN Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14682631837355 (code B ref 23926); Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:54:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jul 2016 18:53:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47217 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMgKF-0001uY-Gb for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:53:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54993) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMgKD-0001u2-Kr for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:53:01 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMgK5-0002E6-6P for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:52:56 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51844) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMgK5-0002Dt-2X; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:52:53 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4085 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMgK1-0002om-2n; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:52:51 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 21:52:15 +0300 Message-Id: <83bn24c8io.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <ff33c2cc-337a-433b-a87a-0ea1814311d2@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT)) References: <<<<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>>> <<<<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>>> <<<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>>> <<<8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <<c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default>> <<83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN>> <ff33c2cc-337a-433b-a87a-0ea1814311d2@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > Cc: npostavs@HIDDEN, 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > The option value was changed? I don't think so. > > > > Yes, it was changed, because the value returned by the function > > changes each time it's called. > > What function? current-time-string, of course. > And what occurrence of calling it do you think is responsible for > this characterization of the value having been changed outside > Customize? The second one. > The fact is that the user did NOT change the value outside > customize. The message doesn't say it was the user. Emacs doesn't know who changed the value. > And in fact, the value has NOT been changed. Of course, it has changed. Every time current-time-string is called it returns a different value. A defcustom's value is evaluated at least twice, and in this case the second call yields a different value. That's why you see the note about changing. > It is what it was when the defcustom was evaluated. > > The responsible code is `custom-variable-state', specifically > this part: > > (setq tmp (get symbol 'standard-value)) > (if (condition-case nil > (and (equal value (eval (car tmp))) (equal comment nil)) > (error nil)) > 'standard > 'changed) > > That tests whether the current value (var VALUE here), which > in this case came from (default-value 'time), is equal to > the result of RE-evaluating the defining defcustom sexp, > (current-time). And of course it is not equal, because > time passes... > > The reason it is not unequal is NOT because something has > changed the option value outside Customize. The option > value has not been changed at all. What "changes" here is > the result of evaluating the initial sexp. > > IOW, the "changed-outside-Customize" test used is too simplistic. No, it isn't. It does its job. If you want to avoid the note, if the note annoys you, don't write such code. > The code blithely assumes that evaluating what `custom-get' > returns represents the original value, whereas what it returns > is the result of RE-evaluating the original sexp. That is > precisely the point of this bug. There's no bug. This is how this stuff is supposed to work. I'm not going to endorse any significant changes there because of such marginal use cases.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:55:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146828485017396 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@HIDDEN Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146828485017396 (code B ref 23926); Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:55:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2016 00:54:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47385 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMlxi-0004WV-Lz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:54:10 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:35637) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1bMlxh-0004WI-NJ for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:54:10 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u6C0s3MX022153 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:54:04 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6C0s3jj027640 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:54:03 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6C0s17W014749; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:54:02 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <b6126ffb-b956-414d-9dea-fc77cdf5a043@default> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 17:53:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> References: <<<<<CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN>>>>> <<<<<83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN>>>>> <<<<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>>>> <<<<8337nihpdw.fsf@HIDDEN>>>> <<<c0dd88c2-51ef-4f4f-964c-f0254db970f7@default>>> <<<83zipqg3e3.fsf@HIDDEN>>> <<ff33c2cc-337a-433b-a87a-0ea1814311d2@default>> <<83bn24c8io.fsf@HIDDEN>> In-Reply-To: <<83bn24c8io.fsf@HIDDEN>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) All I can say is that I disagree. So be it.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: npostavs@HIDDEN Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.14682939975578 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14682939975578 (code B ref 23926); Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:27:01 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2016 03:26:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47426 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMoLF-0001Ru-58 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:26:37 -0400 Received: from mail-io0-f180.google.com ([209.85.223.180]:33492) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1bMoLB-0001Rf-Kr for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:26:35 -0400 Received: by mail-io0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 38so5479901iol.0 for <23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:26:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q4HtW10QWviEw4JUIjyRC0QVDjGd5CLTm7PsrFDs0xI=; b=Zz2SfXO7EXxCaK+KSIeLni/eQKhIf9VAngwmI/mkCg8/FqmN//yVCuDE2me+DPsJpZ tWdDYRB5AzuH5rNJtd3y78YCSPGm27m5YL62wgnDKFARHNYhaXVatOi0QFbrStSKoI9s aE+8H33GruOLWZcb/29aMH20G46L20cg5JnDB540OzUg2hk7UWmcqRwaO7Lsou7lssN4 xgU+Zee0J7k4ORD5+xT7zoTQjWjBr69GzRAPqiPCKwdB8OPosOwoJHcQcwOSsqmCY+NA dizjSlFi89dZJLnKIw/OSeRjEn2NCli2uC5MTy57hab6lcXzH2AqfkVaP8tYsJvoO1/q u3Ng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q4HtW10QWviEw4JUIjyRC0QVDjGd5CLTm7PsrFDs0xI=; b=FNO9EB0xXoQqqWePtllR022CH52BdHjYJllSi8Z/WjQ5HtgSwYiLEejxRyzdCy6570 fljI3JxrEcDhsjKKj5Kv0K/ToyA+/ncTdmFO/rOBdhU4Sb8GQl+drVsOYRWPEk+4Ysz+ Jq0um6n66oL7sxzvkka7uE81ZI/D9Rop7NI7aJ1NXWMsNAlG/vdVt+/otTs+mIs09fNk ULsl9RXnzA1AqXbdYaOpsrQror4J5sXROuQ8ROZfJCtwlXuV9A+tUFy1o+w9blLdRLjI BSu9yNGGxJOckfmSJNpWbtoFfq0zY0OKOBWlwZoxU2pDHm7K4k8p4OUeJBIEwZn7dHVm 01/A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJMBmNl/Z0P48zbSdMi6ybpdVImN9J7433YzgIO/F8B3f8YVd97c32Cp0lYnd4FwQ== X-Received: by 10.107.164.202 with SMTP id d71mr468799ioj.80.1468293988103; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zony (206-188-64-44.cpe.distributel.net. [206.188.64.44]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id o15sm10097465ith.2.2016.07.11.20.26.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: npostavs@HIDDEN References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN> <8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:26:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: <8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 09 Jul 2016 17:03:39 +0300") Message-ID: <87inwbfsf2.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> Either really save the original value, or don't call it the "original >> value". We can't use "default value" because that's already used for >> the non-buffer local value, unfortunately. I think "standard value" >> could work, though Drew said it was unclear. > > Why change anything in the wording at all? It won't really change > what is being done, and won't prevent any confusion, because all this > "standard", "original", "default" etc. are not well defined anyway. I had a look at the docs; seems to me "standard" is used consistently, so it makes sense to change to that. Docstring of defcustom: STANDARD is an expression specifying the variable=E2=80=99s standard value. It should not be quoted. It is evaluated once by =E2=80=98defcustom=E2=80=99, and the value is assigned to SYMBOL if the= variable is unbound. The expression itself is also stored, so that Customize can re-evaluate it later to get the standard value. DOC is the variable documentation. Elisp manual description of defcustom: The argument STANDARD is an expression that specifies the standard value for OPTION. ... The expression STANDARD can be evaluated at various other times, too=E2=80=94whenever the customization facility needs to know OPTION=E2= =80=99s standard value. So be sure to use an expression which is harmless to evaluate at any time.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD=<non-pure-expression> gives confusing results Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 05:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.23926.B23926.146830083517937 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: npostavs@HIDDEN Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by 23926-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146830083517937 (code B ref 23926); Tue, 12 Jul 2016 05:21:02 +0000 Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2016 05:20:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47461 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1bMq7W-0004fF-Mc for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:20:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41226) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMq7U-0004ez-KM for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:20:32 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMq7M-0005Sp-DK for 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:20:27 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58329) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMq7M-0005Sb-AB; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:20:24 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4450 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1bMq7K-0001xW-FC; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:20:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 08:20:05 +0300 Message-Id: <83y457bfga.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <87inwbfsf2.fsf@HIDDEN> (npostavs@HIDDEN) References: <CAM-tV-8cG3gLgf-A+wBYPZWNy2WPGFV3uEdNE7=ad3oq4rXmnw@HIDDEN> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@HIDDEN> <838txbgfgx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV-80t+zDrp3OPhW36YtQCqWDWCZjc3TQdoj9Aka2TiJEfQ@HIDDEN> <837fcvgdho.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM-tV--4-9NVU3BodydvqE_m1VyFUOmstbaXU7fZfdNA-xbj0w@HIDDEN> <8360sehps4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87inwbfsf2.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > From: npostavs@HIDDEN > Cc: 23926 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:26:25 -0400 > > I had a look at the docs; seems to me "standard" is used consistently, > so it makes sense to change to that. Docstring of defcustom: I'm in favor of using consistent terminology, but this: > STANDARD is an expression specifying the variable’s standard > value. is just tautology: it doesn't really explain what is STANDARD, except by using the same word, which is too general to explain itself. So if we want to use this, and consider that an improvement, I think it would be good to explain some more what "standard value" means or is. Thanks.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.