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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2021 16:43:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 25 12:43:53 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34518 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mUAmH-0003rZ-5M for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 12:43:53 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180]:46779) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1mUAmE-0003r7-Ld for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 12:43:51 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f180.google.com with SMTP id w11so8648171plz.13 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HX/vvehsh65HjH/u7LkPOsMEiqCU8V82UaK3oVnWEwI=; b=MsU6vgxGX+BXOZIaI6zm4Yqe4MMAHv5/k1j8UWLwq9HrV/mlcPnQVE5Y/Cuv6L0C5h OhUD7d+EMIyjkl75sX3JthuHFqKUtz2rGwWJy7RqRlORnY05q+Ks0Gg+mQJrcU5m0JYd UIqQVK44XBSsvH9hIxFTiGf8MTfmgZp/rJlS8LA02Ek2gew60OmDmuiV1xnvWqDHFOI4 Tbuqj02svhrvg1g22SdjSrTPZAQUPKFBmJm31iPeo2bce95ikV2Eno94E6r3KWaZTrZP POV10sMxhtf22AqkZvDGHDcTxCouOvjoe48HRCH5lkq9sg0tl+fY6GzOurJubgWWfBxG xyNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532QeTOzG78oBvtxqxH1zYuihSjd424LPD3RbWwW61rDoB4QoymA S0VYaE7QsFuuLKSQbGQnjUx+aa32Sf8BGNSD5wM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxG854lelafIfmDatXi6EQ80s7Z7Yhl7TQLONm5BvKetGJ4EMQBoSppNdN8a5xjpj4/MOnBOeSdGFInQRmddNY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:460a:: with SMTP id w10mr9110542pjg.132.1632588224965; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:43:44 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB548838F0D2263A9F4F37F36EF3A59@HIDDEN> References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSxnfZ=TdOYu+mTu5C0GDJS+yuyk=k-TKHcXvy-bLm2A@HIDDEN> <87y27l4kym.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB5488946A7FD47935A543AE0BF3A59@HIDDEN> <874ka981ty.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB548838F0D2263A9F4F37F36EF3A59@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:43:44 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkm=ua+meutAQH=YSYmr_YG_R6rq8aoUMbRxCqqTTLP8qVg@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN>, "49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes: >> "Because it's only appropriate for Common Lisp." Good enough? > > No. We don't know that. We can't know that. Yes we do, actually. We know it won't work with any of the overwhelmingly most popular Lisps out there (Scheme, Clojure, Racket). If there is some random small Lisp dialect, it may or may not work. According to Stefan M, no particular effort has been made for the last 20 years to support anything but Common Lisp.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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[83.132.177.247]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r25sm10632551wra.76.2021.09.25.02.02.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:02:54 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [External] : bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSxnfZ=TdOYu+mTu5C0GDJS+yuyk=k-TKHcXvy-bLm2A@HIDDEN> <87y27l4kym.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB5488946A7FD47935A543AE0BF3A59@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 10:02:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB5488946A7FD47935A543AE0BF3A59@HIDDEN> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 25 Sep 2021 01:13:45 +0000") Message-ID: <874ka981ty.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN>, "49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes: > I would just say "some Lisps, such as Common Lisp". Since lisp-mode doesn't work for any Lisp other than Common Lisp, that would be misleading. People'll use it for their XYZ Lisp flavor, and it'll break. > If this mode is not particularly appropriate for some dialects, maybe > say why "Because it's only appropriate for Common Lisp." Good enough? > , or call out those dialects. You realize there's a very large number of those, right? When you write an email, you don't sign it "Not Jo=C3=A3o, not Lars, not any of the Stefans". You sign it: "Drew". Because it's easier. > If, as has been claimed, the change in language is > to avoid misunderstanding and misleading, then do > that, really. Don't wave hands or beat around the > bush. Be concrete and helpful. Who's beating around the bush? I only see one person writing paragraph-fulls of objections to a plain, simple and obvious a 2 line-patch. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2021 06:42:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 25 02:42:46 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60139 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mU1OY-0005bs-HJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:42:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53616) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mU1OV-0005bd-LL for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:42:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60964) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mU1OP-0004uc-6v; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:42:37 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4195 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mU1OO-0002LY-6M; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:42:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:42:34 +0300 Message-Id: <8335ptrw9x.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmn_LanQ2891_cVLax8K1iEUbKsGr2JPbmxW=ygvRR9Nyg@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:22:12 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSxnfZ=TdOYu+mTu5C0GDJS+yuyk=k-TKHcXvy-bLm2A@HIDDEN> <87y27l4kym.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn_LanQ2891_cVLax8K1iEUbKsGr2JPbmxW=ygvRR9Nyg@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, joaotavora@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> > Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:22:12 -0700 > Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes: > > > No, we never decided on the wording, so only the change to the docstring > > was installed. > > OK, this is what I think we should install. Any objections? Yes, I don't think we should install this, for the reasons I explained in the previous discussion. Nothing's changed, so please consider this issue as closed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2021 01:35:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 24 21:35:25 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59723 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mTwb7-0006Ha-Aa for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:35:25 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:33762) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mTwb4-0006HK-RG for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:35:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=myjyGfIZhj494E12AGFrW9QxYhFN0kWk9tcMSM7mMVQ=; b=tKtp4oGQAQnGz5HTwHM7CCNdll pIBeIEvVGJMi066nN4XaJTXfnhVI5F9Jj2e/s+KzZrk0CeNtJO+OR+gQtRulx3FkoLMniElf3P7zZ qOvofYbqKJohHEtPM2tbTj8acZtAiVyy5AbmhZcflsszrcnzdu+DheGsGNJ6GQLmTrfg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mTwav-0007zh-60; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 03:35:15 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSxnfZ=TdOYu+mTu5C0GDJS+yuyk=k-TKHcXvy-bLm2A@HIDDEN> <87y27l4kym.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn_LanQ2891_cVLax8K1iEUbKsGr2JPbmxW=ygvRR9Nyg@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEU+RoM3R4Uscq4n hsItS41TWpOwr8o1iL7///9ogBk0AAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UJGQEHAOTfpgUAAAGs SURBVDjLdZNLcoMwDIbJDWJad49c2nWtCex7A+iYPcngrBtm8PUr+QFOQkVMHH2W5N+xikI824FG sQfYikMJoJAGBNNK00sciwO8VgDvJXxDJQDKqvScQPVcgdLQgL0KIPIIabp9YITMAUgjDZuggI6/ AxBgognZmYknlFCJwtTR3wljhlGGKQNng9E6Y6eYlXQMGRjsFLNSDbusgFLR43MxaLaIt8EOIabc wEQChxX4VBd7ZUDirJkGS+6+zoCVspNm9AA8aC6uZeAPy1jeWAAfF2xjcSKSgTqFiBk9CEc7rGC5 IPpdxTM3D0AkQARjKpy9jPX/6vHU+4gZFzvmQNes3HrQZeBH16lGY/Ob0OsoEPFj+ge0d8Ak0GI7 5qBOOtoZfzN/qTOQ39MXDAKXc3vDrwyoFSCizgAmQLtCteUq6ecqMA9R92AN4QCsVRTIVm1+ijim CDLuoFJl4KxQaepP1BCXRHDzLas2N6Vl0MzeC/TB1jlHY44ANT6YB8uVlrlb7P8KPmnaMXDpTse2 5A7rWaDzpoC2xbVoD5omfBlSd6zd7ht3H3RH8QdZYeMm+rfuuwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUA MjAyMS0wOS0yNVQwMTowNzowMCswMDowMFTYEMIAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDkt MjVUMDE6MDc6MDArMDA6MDAlhah+AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Brigid Mae Power's _Head Above the Water_: "I Had To Keep My Circle Small" Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 03:35:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmn_LanQ2891_cVLax8K1iEUbKsGr2JPbmxW=ygvRR9Nyg@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:22:12 -0700") Message-ID: <87v92pqvxs.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > OK, this is what I think we should install. Any objections? Looks good to me. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > OK, this is what I think we should install. Any objections? Looks good to me. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
> No, we never decided on the wording, so only the change to the docstring
> was installed.
OK, this is what I think we should install. Any objections?
diff --git a/doc/emacs/building.texi b/doc/emacs/building.texi
index 8de93867ba..bdddc83f2a 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/building.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/building.texi
@@ -1764,10 +1764,10 @@ External Lisp
@cindex mode, Lisp
@cindex Common Lisp
- Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
-general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode command
-is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
-whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
+ Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
+Lisp. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode
+automatically for files whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or
+@file{.lisp}.
@findex run-lisp
@vindex inferior-lisp-program
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkSxnfZ=TdOYu+mTu5C0GDJS+yuyk=k-TKHcXvy-bLm2A@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 00:23:13 +0100
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(Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 24 Sep 2021 16:01:55 -0700")
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Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:
> Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> diff --git a/doc/emacs/building.texi b/doc/emacs/building.texi
>> index 8de93867ba..7d655449c5 100644
>> --- a/doc/emacs/building.texi
>> +++ b/doc/emacs/building.texi
>> @@ -1764,10 +1764,10 @@ External Lisp
>> @cindex mode, Lisp
>> @cindex Common Lisp
>>
>> - Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
>> -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode command
>> -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
>> -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
>> + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
>> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
>> +lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
>> +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
>>
>> @findex run-lisp
>> @vindex inferior-lisp-program
>
> This change was never installed, was it?
No, we never decided on the wording, so only the change to the docstring
was installed.
> I think saying "programs written in Common Lisp" is good, and leaving
> the "ancestor dialects" part out of it.
I agree. That's Stefan M.'s position too. But it's not Eli's.
Jo=C3=A3o
PS: Instead of "ancestor dialects", we could also say "related dialects"
if that is somewhat seen as a better middle ground.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
> diff --git a/doc/emacs/building.texi b/doc/emacs/building.texi
> index 8de93867ba..7d655449c5 100644
> --- a/doc/emacs/building.texi
> +++ b/doc/emacs/building.texi
> @@ -1764,10 +1764,10 @@ External Lisp
> @cindex mode, Lisp
> @cindex Common Lisp
>
> - Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode command
> -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
> -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> +lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
> +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
>
> @findex run-lisp
> @vindex inferior-lisp-program
This change was never installed, was it?
It would be good if we could install this fix. As the discussion in
this bug report has shown, what the text says now is completely wrong.
I think saying "programs written in Common Lisp" is good, and leaving
the "ancestor dialects" part out of it.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 16:58:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 12:58:31 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58642 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lydXj-0007lF-4F for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:58:31 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180]:44954) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lydXh-0007l3-EA for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:58:29 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f180.google.com with SMTP id h6so688799plf.11 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:58:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4HsmbYnV6WJKuz9vrpiIdZxyr0Ss9ehLoTLkfFjGsWI=; b=HbDGFQtvqqNQ1hMNx1XEEkOR7PysES42lCo6WhyVEFy1rStxrSK5X/xr+95nxJnP2+ Mv3xCIeJtdCbauVI/po4YONi1kuAZ2uIocudzqDOWH1t6dr+umqxFG6Qz3XuWWjhFSNY z0CD8RhYypWO03oH+XZFEETXiLmtcom36fuyNBrEUZnNRNG3Of8byHnkx7eoRYRD2617 tMzKAux8Kb1YA0LmJWmEFTAHBjJX0f1NTDrN4uBHADe4ke5r+f3lBYBqrbzm5/RaTbbc tbeG/mBasT6lvbu4xv3fRinjYaLH/umx1OsT8Zuavmyt+p6gkRRAHiO05mVAzOnoYYg8 JdzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4HsmbYnV6WJKuz9vrpiIdZxyr0Ss9ehLoTLkfFjGsWI=; b=H8FN0bXW1se6t7qmUECH0Kh5W04rBVmuy6CruzSFdqCPtp6QhKnEtc3UMcaEJ4C+Mg pMAvTKhThHQ/aEEGN+Fv+XBrJmcq/M0eWHGkbOOEUb4UEjPwHk5nL0j9Ny+gd5RIiMJq gPljewJwJheU6cUMnvub0tjBo8y6ucAqk6p7k5JQxb2kMcl7wqgyb8mxmHX7mMYanreO hI4asdpZKjOKuW1HxJt7msizf6CqJMNVdkQs+GYiKHKSYzaTF5OAz9ONLz30F8HFxQZa p1ErY6s1WTgjHXShMbkjR8I90jzxIlm375vq1B75lsGIHK5nm1rXiYZXiqn4lWUeG8I2 kDgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UC0y4eeApH86zVgNSfV2rzmRIeqJ7q54bZc0/v75fVTyRIzN1 1pOjWjlufG6+Y09GUCuWFiOTX5abllsxKErxhBA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8Ey8PJqQ28JJae/ZEgVVQE7valrw8fIxokRzBxNw5bh3dKzQADIZeBv78OD1uyZmmpdkip84EX8Sk40gkpXk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:590d:: with SMTP id k13mr5838056pji.56.1625072303378; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:58:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6n7mjto.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv5yxv9uwq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <834kdfmh9e.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52cvDuhiNPXJNnpCaM=GqtR-PEA2bO6mr+kSqeTRb8ERw@HIDDEN> <8335szmgv8.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <8335szmgv8.fsf@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 17:58:10 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm50aaGKUAqYMvUxLaEwpkNaiZjG9N56RKr6mTSDCfwWNbg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:55 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 17:50:03 +0100 > > Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:47 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > > > > > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > > > > Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:37:24 -0400 > > > > > > > > > If they are similar enough, there's no need for such special plac= es in > > > > > the code. > > > > > > > > But then the "and other similar Foos" should be added to all our ma= jor > > > > modes, since that's also true for them. E.g. how 'bout: > > > > > > > > @@ -2608,7 +2608,7 @@ c-c-menu > > > > > > > > ;;;###autoload > > > > (define-derived-mode c-mode prog-mode "C" > > > > - "Major mode for editing C code. > > > > + "Major mode for editing C code and other similar languages. > > > > > > I don't mind. > > > > Come on, don't do this. > > I'm not doing anything. I was asked a question, and I answered it. Sure, and I just volunteered my objection to the idea. Anyway, if you want to close this bug, I think I'm good (it could be a little more accurate, but I'm fine with the results now). --=20 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 16:56:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 12:56:03 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58633 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lydVL-0007hW-F3 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:56:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57980) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lydVJ-0007h2-Qb for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:56:02 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45550) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lydVD-0006QQ-Th; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:55:55 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4576 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lydVD-0002Zn-Ge; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:55:55 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 19:55:55 +0300 Message-Id: <8335szmgv8.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CALDnm52cvDuhiNPXJNnpCaM=GqtR-PEA2bO6mr+kSqeTRb8ERw@HIDDEN> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Wed, 30 Jun 2021 17:50:03 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6n7mjto.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv5yxv9uwq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <834kdfmh9e.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52cvDuhiNPXJNnpCaM=GqtR-PEA2bO6mr+kSqeTRb8ERw@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 17:50:03 +0100 > Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:47 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > > > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > > > Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:37:24 -0400 > > > > > > > If they are similar enough, there's no need for such special places in > > > > the code. > > > > > > But then the "and other similar Foos" should be added to all our major > > > modes, since that's also true for them. E.g. how 'bout: > > > > > > @@ -2608,7 +2608,7 @@ c-c-menu > > > > > > ;;;###autoload > > > (define-derived-mode c-mode prog-mode "C" > > > - "Major mode for editing C code. > > > + "Major mode for editing C code and other similar languages. > > > > I don't mind. > > Come on, don't do this. I'm not doing anything. I was asked a question, and I answered it.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 16:50:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 12:50:23 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58625 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lydPr-0007ZG-I0 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:50:23 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f43.google.com ([209.85.216.43]:56107) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lydPp-0007Z2-51 for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:50:21 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f43.google.com with SMTP id l11so2146598pji.5 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:50:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7DWhUrxLgdqTBx1exQdueLB2ieyzGdaJ8vlwJCObDsM=; b=uUsjPbzBa4if4HlKD04eAyMPhVbgZ6j2+hirl95w69taS5zG9oU5f3vPe30rm8Ew8l tRCAsyVYQr6OAGnClCePyqyiS4VsV05HzOJatDEIRqhcIS0z9n58fQ4sTBUg1+LUKDr/ KcxvxB95atBlPxRl/JoYh4/yk4gkqBzy5IUSL161YgZiIQCD4thgoWAgkF8l+nq4mLkR Hi86tdDUILPbtmJ6B32ZgVgCoLyr8XeOifE3VjVWA2Drj/l7QuwrIHJEpG8PcLjGzAwr sj4qdkjQrVxtA7JQ7hGutLD1W4pACKMMYjv2FLWL/sDEkehToqPnauMRLXEJsZhZPX+D SYfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7DWhUrxLgdqTBx1exQdueLB2ieyzGdaJ8vlwJCObDsM=; b=ciZDDdQFvgtRLww75OYz8SOFHivS98nGJRUw3LLKPOgfwyvCKoqtwubakcdgw+YTBO pOu+Gtt/1ZG/hImn3MLAQ2Jc2syskkGeJE7tvf/ihHb41ip25LVz6F/Px3TTG7WuHzpA 7+VoquBxp2ItBCgxYG5NaVl7/GRak2OcXsO8CmbVXD7czkfTIm7OrVVz8htMvIVTMkfy yPJNh3rQbfKU1RC/uRbEXVA1ZYc0kZoerKO4ToIJy/VWKJ7WjM4bFWE+SRQS2ZhnFqzX H3q2r3FHqeiI+MCDegp170MJ9YeTUaZ6PfnYK+KfmY8ZacP7iCRLeBxIhmPKfG73xcCz nY3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530xMII2I6vL3IHbb+1rpocGvFV+CJJQiI7SQoDtMXqozyCELGBJ P74fYUA++rA7NBGHXlmxTF805HiCmF1HEWyRJGQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHdjZVgFYGF01T+KiIoqaH/wGDFjZjzcY2bxXXyqGnvYAPMMgDZfDDXv8uXQdG3y8vXwqTkR2gcDeVmQvuhGI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a981:b029:116:a139:6054 with SMTP id bh1-20020a170902a981b0290116a1396054mr32932596plb.60.1625071815053; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:50:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6n7mjto.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv5yxv9uwq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <834kdfmh9e.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <834kdfmh9e.fsf@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 17:50:03 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm52cvDuhiNPXJNnpCaM=GqtR-PEA2bO6mr+kSqeTRb8ERw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:47 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > > Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:37:24 -0400 > > > > > If they are similar enough, there's no need for such special places i= n > > > the code. > > > > But then the "and other similar Foos" should be added to all our major > > modes, since that's also true for them. E.g. how 'bout: > > > > @@ -2608,7 +2608,7 @@ c-c-menu > > > > ;;;###autoload > > (define-derived-mode c-mode prog-mode "C" > > - "Major mode for editing C code. > > + "Major mode for editing C code and other similar languages. > > I don't mind. Come on, don't do this. A major mode is only for editing programs of a given language or other languages that are a superset of that language. Major mode for language X is only good for programs written for X or for programs written for Y that happen to be compatible with X. The concept of "similarity" is just too vague to use here. Jo=C3=A3o
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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>> > But that is false :-) Scheme, Clojure and Phil's Fennel are two
>> > "general purpose Lisp dialects" that are not at all well suited
>> > to be edited with lisp-mode in Emacs.
>> Would it be okay to mention those 3 exceptions explicitly?
> I guess, but there are probably many more Lisp dialects
> out there.
Definitely. TXR, AutoLisp, Bel, Sisu, and Racket come to mind.
I'd be surprised if there aren't another ten or so out there.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 16:47:35 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 12:47:35 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58610 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lydN9-0007U6-CD for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:47:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56442) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lydN3-0007Tq-OM for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:47:33 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45316) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lydMy-0000rZ-3T; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:47:24 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3992 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lydMx-0001r1-KC; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:47:23 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 19:47:25 +0300 Message-Id: <834kdfmh9e.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwv5yxv9uwq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:37:24 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6n7mjto.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv5yxv9uwq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:37:24 -0400 > > > If they are similar enough, there's no need for such special places in > > the code. > > But then the "and other similar Foos" should be added to all our major > modes, since that's also true for them. E.g. how 'bout: > > @@ -2608,7 +2608,7 @@ c-c-menu > > ;;;###autoload > (define-derived-mode c-mode prog-mode "C" > - "Major mode for editing C code. > + "Major mode for editing C code and other similar languages. I don't mind.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
Message-ID: <jwv5yxv9uwq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN>
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<83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:37:24 -0400
In-Reply-To: <83a6n7mjto.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 30 Jun
2021 18:52:03 +0300")
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> If they are similar enough, there's no need for such special places in
> the code.
But then the "and other similar Foos" should be added to all our major
modes, since that's also true for them. E.g. how 'bout:
@@ -2608,7 +2608,7 @@ c-c-menu
;;;###autoload
(define-derived-mode c-mode prog-mode "C"
- "Major mode for editing C code.
+ "Major mode for editing C code and other similar languages.
To submit a problem report, enter `\\[c-submit-bug-report]' from a
c-mode buffer. This automatically sets up a mail buffer with version
After all, I've used `c-mode` for Lex and Yacc files in the past (and
we still use it for XPM files).
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 16:02:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 12:02:39 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lycff-0006Ne-EP for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:02:39 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f44.google.com ([209.85.216.44]:35634) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lycfd-0006NQ-OK for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:02:38 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f44.google.com with SMTP id pf4-20020a17090b1d84b029016f6699c3f2so4634435pjb.0 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:02:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kxa50vVS3m0zx0RTW8dnSLjarAAYlrIFR8ZaHQYo0KY=; b=SUer7GRbwI6D0DK91QG7j783X3zI46K3PmvadhgZ7cK6sK4dODBy1Br/7w7TQcKnI3 ytBvHHdPDOevoAzkrONWGl0rK5hiL4eIeyWgLZUrVzjMAuXWP25IiOLNsG0J3YtkfMGL keNBlJVz5iQX3QzOBdZ48EJrMj4xXwaeMrRcE15bZj2x0A2PdwZXcQjfeDwzVpSdup4x XfHpu2J955qw9n1pmhYfn1AnssaqH8L6/SzPovxoD7Q56sQbVK3E6fVPG5vXzHeFCIkR WkzKx2UhHrYZE/xXEokyrN0bssVU1NZE51dJ8/lUSndPCvqooCNq7KrTYgsXt4DI2W2r 5ATA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kxa50vVS3m0zx0RTW8dnSLjarAAYlrIFR8ZaHQYo0KY=; b=KmAxdl6zhJaqqbfbUY9B1FbunSYH2WHGGWsfIR9uQ3lej2UFP6Swk67QNMebt1QtFu YhHZ4fujRUAMzJfWy+33aTDNb5+Rlcf2KM9ZIilpgg8TVRs58XvXqK1K0lIkz5uf3nPI XAiNGoF2LNkpx2n9O7blczSM2q80IiODRGccemY59ZjIx9FGLnNk2bhYmGLc7LGWVF4k cms8MFDPAC8xJYO58Oin/1mprrS4ofjx4m7bWGWTOk4/0w+amKgFbDKY4Rex9prJi8Wt r71bSDyRNbelQ7MDD2Z2GDeoY5rfAy3HMZJtU0uFu+wOycBfyki2nPfayftDsEAH/V0h QPWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qv8c94Qjf97PSad7x4pKfvcJiihagxhSVP8Aw6p6hV1vsz5cF cYFuIMVAEV5Wtq+UVV/c9Imdx9YJtVlNBbhaotU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypZ0uFISP4pEPrD7xrTvcyR3eQBAffNWCfRYm4SH7pjPQoxqHdXMODaMjgKtMXXoMSw4QwB9NzSXFJanYYRZ4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7b87:b029:128:345d:f596 with SMTP id w7-20020a1709027b87b0290128345df596mr27399946pll.36.1625068951968; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:02:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CALDnm51aqCm+JTDAtB5C_PcsZoC9qTPjhyjRyxjVgft=SEpDcw@HIDDEN> <838s2rmjq4.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <838s2rmjq4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 17:02:20 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm53s2ngaFSwp6=sfz3uLw7voeiCKf5XsBdQc=q5kWt64RA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 4:54 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:50:56 +0100 > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 3:32 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN= a> wrote: > > > > > > > Your changes were not only for the doc string. But if you want to > > > > focus on the doc string, would the following be okay? > > > > > > > > Major mode for editing programs in Common Lisp and other similar = Lisps. > > > > > > It'd be a big improvement, yes, thanks. > > > > I concur. A big improvement. > > Then let's install this. Done. > What about the change to the manual? Still think it should be done, but it's not ultra-important. It's in a section about a part of Emacs almost noone uses nowadays, because `run-inferior-lisp` has been superceded by programs such as SLY and SLIME. It's just inaccurate in its mention of lisp-mode, as I explained. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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I guess, but there are probably many more Lisp dialects out there. It's just more economical to state it the other way round, right? But with the change to the lisp-mode docstring I think we're already in a better place. (As you may guess, I still don't see what the problem in saying "for editing Common Lisp and languages directly related to it" is. It's short and accurate. Though even shorter and more accurate, as Stefan pointed out is "for editing Common Lisp".) Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 15:55:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 11:55:26 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58559 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lycYg-0006Bu-F7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:55:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44148) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycYe-0006Bh-Rl for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:55:25 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43068) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycYZ-0002D4-5J; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:55:19 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4616 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycYU-0007Sx-0U; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:55:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:55:18 +0300 Message-Id: <837dibmjo9.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CALDnm535XBkJEavYdr4u76Gh7=tCWiQ7nX9mVGupQG-QdpFjng@HIDDEN> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:54:39 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm535XBkJEavYdr4u76Gh7=tCWiQ7nX9mVGupQG-QdpFjng@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:54:39 +0100 > Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in > > general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. > > But that is false :-) Scheme, Clojure and Phil's Fennel are two > "general purpose Lisp dialects" that are not at all well suited > to be edited with lisp-mode in Emacs. Would it be okay to mention those 3 exceptions explicitly?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 15:54:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 11:54:15 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58555 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lycXX-00069f-16 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:54:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43938) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycXW-00069R-Ci for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:54:14 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43034) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycXR-0001Rl-44; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:54:09 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4548 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycXQ-0007NY-OZ; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:54:09 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:54:11 +0300 Message-Id: <838s2rmjq4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CALDnm51aqCm+JTDAtB5C_PcsZoC9qTPjhyjRyxjVgft=SEpDcw@HIDDEN> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:50:56 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CALDnm51aqCm+JTDAtB5C_PcsZoC9qTPjhyjRyxjVgft=SEpDcw@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:50:56 +0100 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 3:32 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > > > Your changes were not only for the doc string. But if you want to > > > focus on the doc string, would the following be okay? > > > > > > Major mode for editing programs in Common Lisp and other similar Lisps. > > > > It'd be a big improvement, yes, thanks. > > I concur. A big improvement. Then let's install this. What about the change to the manual?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 15:52:09 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 11:52:09 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58546 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lycVV-00065k-9U for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:52:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycVT-00065X-O9 for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:52:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42966) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycVL-00009E-G3; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:51:59 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4417 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lycVL-0007Bb-3k; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:51:59 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:52:03 +0300 Message-Id: <83a6n7mjto.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:32:51 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>, > 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:32:51 -0400 > > > Your changes were not only for the doc string. But if you want to > > focus on the doc string, would the following be okay? > > > > Major mode for editing programs in Common Lisp and other similar Lisps. > > It'd be a big improvement, yes, thanks. Thanks. > PS: I would still find it to be a lie because I can't see any place in > the code that aims to support "other similar Lisps". If they are similar enough, there's no need for such special places in the code.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 14:54:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 10:54:58 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58444 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lybcA-0004d5-3l for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:54:58 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]:37710) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lybc8-0004cp-KJ for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:54:57 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f172.google.com with SMTP id t9so2531071pgn.4 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 07:54:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Se1ynzfDxB7v+TchcXfRa+iSNGm4bVSkyaoy7AbDyVc=; b=k4wYIhdWgNMF6FHkAnOMap8Bp4TZM+ywmBQq7NY03DQMbD47fWQNFcwEblc6hyxgaY GTeZfTWSdxNDVWyiEd+rMJEyDczIQCt+W6tNzec3swJwr9tw6m+slOJ/QsQd7m/pO2zU dyykIAL5H9PR6k45lRVf8jp0D6H7q6Agaw5n+6TOIp5YFKgYe0jiGd8NEtBcfF26MYnr jpw/nx3ez7DrXnZOZVQjOanqW2sQWTBA3xcDLpmS/DhglORX6PagHPRTZCn/3GG6vDoM w/k1Lv90Duko9D/52TWAPPH4qNkIXKewsVGrZJ/ldwqQqtbqftt6SPu+DPDQ3xF+MIvs Xrrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Se1ynzfDxB7v+TchcXfRa+iSNGm4bVSkyaoy7AbDyVc=; b=LB5gobuvgws/oRrWS/doxVR6cleMpsyVLqk1sH+mXFNxvc+CemTtMmsvnGq5lTFEX/ gyPyowKaUcXIWtULDlwctuc52anTcdjTWwTH4/ewTH2Q+zB4kpy9+7NGZWIMUL7MvCQz qCgn38dvbm8LCmNilMXGIWb1CmDHULiFIMSvRWOCtgSP/yTc9DwbU1sQhvQ9MOE3h9xo HwM79nALSXZqlzyrtS00r3ha1FyK0hK4rfpO/exnhcSlP9xTEcfxConl9VCihvmSdKnm ROkXNeaxiDtTyav3YgbKDjUhl+Bhaat2P8V+bbbtEK8qrBtAZTw39fERl2d/uQvVmf8c DYuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Bu0KNtqUvlsyPjdaAd8qXTI8Hu0TkBEZTTTse4ymwpVto+R5f 9Tftwg+aEOF7Usc6IcCzNAcq0B78IzznYzKrsRs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzs7jKLe+pHXipOUIcRqViFdis03wZXgZT1OyLfvfhn67ES0fNXMsP3AYxDUiJ7nJRfsgAmhZiQvx0z3lIpfRU= X-Received: by 2002:a62:30c2:0:b029:289:116c:ec81 with SMTP id w185-20020a6230c20000b0290289116cec81mr36971586pfw.42.1625064890876; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 07:54:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:54:39 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm535XBkJEavYdr4u76Gh7=tCWiQ7nX9mVGupQG-QdpFjng@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:51 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:32:40 +0100 > > Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > Fix what? what is the problem? > > > > The docstring is misleading! > > Your changes were not only for the doc string. True. And that's because I think that sentence in the manual which I proposed changing conveys the same fundamental misunderstanding. It says: > Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in > general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. But that is false :-) Scheme, Clojure and Phil's Fennel are two "general purpose Lisp dialects" that are not at all well suited to be edited with lisp-mode in Emacs. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 14:51:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 10:51:15 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58440 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lybYZ-0004Xu-Je for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:51:15 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f171.google.com ([209.85.210.171]:39591) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lybYX-0004Xf-GI for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:51:13 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f171.google.com with SMTP id b12so1547759pfv.6 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 07:51:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=btif/Xl89ysCJ2lg5Cpd8EYlSiZxYiw+pbRM9HhCguU=; b=S9chPhTV2tuO7E1fsgA0kxkDy3odMlojt9BQ9VUwnW0HyhXiZ24bVi8cBrWLHKxa1I 6IHQMZ7fEwNiVAwpahLOYh5ibt0v26t7iHLs8KEdlAzH0XzPUAARD9bl996KW/8INSEA twn3+srjExciSfe1WIw+gKBY5RRN3N4lqtMuJCKtthIHGOKJGTQ9ltvDAP8pz5/2Nc2a GrCII+BlfuwEyUlDYLaq4jNm2CgV+rlsg3VmRVIZAO9SrwzRdd9AXf/QTmGJR34BN171 UawyLiNbuR5C+Syr3xJsNKmGB+SkD47WKoME2+4kc+mzbTnVUKBAp9jBxgSwr9wQoacz G5DA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=btif/Xl89ysCJ2lg5Cpd8EYlSiZxYiw+pbRM9HhCguU=; b=q2RtN3dgMkbsP8r8S5wGmvmduw6Uj91qJHmuJ6FgBm0CYVeDYyDBj8nPeUfZm1BrKj X0o8l+lFtkmeNF9+8Ktkb+sU/PvBLio+fIZvNFzIhonm6IC2V2+ys3LpeG7nlOGjyTEo EOg9Bir+U6KySIBElMS5nB1RfgNlhJ+UFtHBsrk1wK8uvJ/oP0VzSazoXkE/Ow5V+OwZ /sgipQRXdgEs6G6EpngI1R4yNkZG/aznZCrR5H4U4WPPBkuelXcinDlh09EGYuYFVJ1W gdtoyE5QOQ3QjAq55/IZjYzSUr54bN2U4OZbWDf9nf3BfEZ88id4Mou/+7Puga2inBnv g2yw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kCaHpReh2Z6nVLweufoFnaaTKWbLrpmdG0e+EDeJoiLdNlQ3k Q5UMKMfu+8mrwT+6ZZQaKy8SDCnxLtZ770zYEIY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzXiIkunUCnVL2CUnDcrpbM3nnY1rshVly8FbSQXbVCgbTG6o+FV89S/ia3KnRsyImwTwNT70NFzwISph7iAHA= X-Received: by 2002:a63:cf02:: with SMTP id j2mr4263280pgg.411.1625064667640; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:50:56 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm51aqCm+JTDAtB5C_PcsZoC9qTPjhyjRyxjVgft=SEpDcw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 3:32 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> w= rote: > > > Your changes were not only for the doc string. But if you want to > > focus on the doc string, would the following be okay? > > > > Major mode for editing programs in Common Lisp and other similar Lisp= s. > > It'd be a big improvement, yes, thanks. I concur. A big improvement. > PS: I would still find it to be a lie because I can't see any place in > the code that aims to support "other similar Lisps". Also, the concept of "similarity" isn't very well defined. Scheme and CL may look similar to many, whereas in reality there are worlds of difference depending on your knowledge. So I'd really stick with "ancestor Lisps" or "related Lisps". But your proposal is a good improvement Eli. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
Message-ID: <jwv4kdfbf33.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:32:51 -0400
In-Reply-To: <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 30 Jun
2021 16:51:35 +0300")
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> Your changes were not only for the doc string. But if you want to
> focus on the doc string, would the following be okay?
>
> Major mode for editing programs in Common Lisp and other similar Lisps.
It'd be a big improvement, yes, thanks.
Stefan
PS: I would still find it to be a lie because I can't see any place in
the code that aims to support "other similar Lisps".
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 13:51:43 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 09:51:43 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56994 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lyacx-0000WF-79 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:51:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42942) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyacv-0000W2-3A for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:51:41 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39044) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyaco-0006pa-Qi; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:51:34 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4934 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyaco-00034R-9w; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:51:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 16:51:35 +0300 Message-Id: <83eecjmpeg.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:32:40 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:32:40 +0100 > Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > Fix what? what is the problem? > > The docstring is misleading! Your changes were not only for the doc string. But if you want to focus on the doc string, would the following be okay? Major mode for editing programs in Common Lisp and other similar Lisps.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 13:32:59 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 09:32:59 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56964 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lyaKp-0006K6-DA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:32:59 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f42.google.com ([209.85.216.42]:36452) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lyaKn-0006Jr-PB for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:32:58 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f42.google.com with SMTP id g24-20020a17090ace98b029017225d0c013so3016936pju.1 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 06:32:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nrJvT5PENY4+MHRRCUwsrRFy4BajsIGv7smFfy82dcA=; b=a87FSXk15pKFCFZp+qICZ4JQnS+TKXevIl0Sz3dgXCBYH48I44VV7k25MO2GKApvd+ w9B9oLDYN4EwgicpEum7q75VCH86UmCXU4N4agSo/rUS5SsbVmTlz9QC6T8u4IhcKSn3 tkWOby+PLjxxAc9edPyfQ0q8VpW+W3ndZYctszL31XNi4/Z8trdw1ylC3Rq71rziDIpo Gp12YFLf6Oxp91DX0VkF8bzuAB7PGoTq2O9TDeUKBVAHL3UZDmChgLTkq7RUpdyWBAgL qRuPadwOS/v+0pzwvvUmcxo0mnRG0iP91Dlxe1St2whDwHtNlsymjy+QRkawGHIfhABg Ek8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nrJvT5PENY4+MHRRCUwsrRFy4BajsIGv7smFfy82dcA=; b=GWUZRYV3tWkdTgDh4xNT5czHkFTuGvDAJknDyW9QyMKLCoItnjqJRpI1jPXfbZU6wP SsaJhU2+Eq2lQQQOYNmmeFepxf09ILbpFfnd4NI/h7Nhv4/ykP0xxsMwaL/0TnZp9d9M za5+Kh3f90MyyDJoPns9p5MpDx2PpkBMPC7EzRAUFiHzOH3+rP4wh9O/6iVld2vYaPow 1mDDczuRH34hFn7VyrNfmM8sq4S0NWESLGz8lxAIlG7H6mKxB7an513GsiezNDoXOmUu 0shF9wk5PiIxnJfrt888DV+cAZOoWzwz9OJrsR8ll/b/YcWLOwAfpbvOu9NlxZrppKVU 1VjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Re3i/mNKlIyXSgqhLFj3yYfCqwXIsbADlFlQKUm2Ni3FDY0WG NaVHBN0o05y3JlEFl3NWXeqD/mdugdZkcPVRSiY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNxuyPFgGZvOGld9hGP3+Z7WzNXGwG/KlSeBh+zMMSEVMR/G44dhe4yoXzWE5Edy6iapgHErKxvLk4llX1AbE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4c4b:: with SMTP id np11mr4507858pjb.125.1625059971946; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 06:32:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:32:40 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm52WvAGjwD0Cr8JJ9ORqhDmsBv67mUuhHixMgEZo08uwmQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > Fix what? what is the problem? The docstring is misleading! It tells you that you may use lisp-mode to edit Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp and that is completely false. The only other such Lisp is Common Lisp. For mode developers it also misleads into thinking that lisp-mode is an acceptable ancestor to use for a new Lisp-like major mode that isn't GNU Emacs Lisp. That is also false. So correcting the misleading statement is a good idea. Jo=C3=A3o --=20 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 13:29:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 09:29:30 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56904 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lyaHS-0003zG-9s for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:29:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34980) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyaHQ-0003z3-CE for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:29:28 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38250) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyaHK-0000bf-3d; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:29:22 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3567 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyaHJ-000337-NW; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:29:22 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 16:29:24 +0300 Message-Id: <83im1vmqff.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:03:01 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:03:01 -0400 > > > How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for > > a doc string? > > See patch below. I cannot accept that, sorry. At least not yet. I actually still don't understand what practical problem are we trying to solve here. There's no code change, so what the code did until now it will continue to do henceforth. CL and other lisps also won't change by virtue of this patch. So why do we worry what those doc strings say? > The problem is indeed not new, it's the same as 20 years ago. > It's just that noone bothered to fix it. Fix what? what is the problem?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 13:22:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 09:22:07 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56828 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lyaAI-0003js-Jz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:22:07 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:41707) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lyaA9-0003hq-Sy for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:21:58 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f169.google.com with SMTP id c5so2426841pfv.8 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 06:21:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XHrJTW9Yvv5bWuT6c7sZANnhtFfC71wt4y5TnJTDYiM=; b=TMI8weOyOMqdfHndPjwUkLXTJOzwPffgAkOcdunAtVyKEetkzTU6pnyRvfLIqLl0h0 Gn7+b635sGdxFlofxrj/daj19f0MbmyrtmBOf3f0sk24XvVAwIrGJTRfgnMK/UW718gT 6oa34ZANjWnLbX2At1Gjr0lmUjOqnojf2EdtgFH4Yk3NiQLvAWZy96MmiZiYYJdDea3K Fbj1dRLN99F29aoPAseZ7mY9bN8kfBQI0kLNBvYTO1+lf9q51NAqvEOqTwtd0bFYYhZA XSLBHx4+RttyC85t9Jc2zsyXv1KklRux6jwM1xXs6sCs/oiT1FJLyJym8dNLaTKC6CQT z+9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XHrJTW9Yvv5bWuT6c7sZANnhtFfC71wt4y5TnJTDYiM=; b=OxXqkKzVeKVPJo2TmMTtomQm+Qwg/ykQSJk19+oYicNoH5gsjPz8QkNSO783qxwHpn Vm6lJcokn4v8TpjrmaPw2GHK4ordIJY7OVLAwX2esZztrL+jXIVggiBXS/qJwWhrTFTc AnFWxkGF+zR8//8ZJTQFNkYATTHeaX4KFNLmzJS372/o+ZJLYta2/pemlUlMqiwiigJW U81IbL3BakQsK3ONE3LqkRdCcUrz1UlVcRWbCc8jbjjV9iSvVZeHBcrTg2U4luifJTXx dJfnW5aQtwakcOXYzOjzYplvpB517Vj7J9emDPjiEjkBE249aCyqQ6AHx3XeWoH0gFXF ehog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531y4Ylz1zlAG3cvHsBgNwNeqzlAKiP1hiJ5gQbemrDgE82SegKx zsyWPspT0YrBVkVFjkWNLyYLtqCgOssdXbo5ZpM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzjYzFLoQL30PonnxIoIZn7qZLI6NJ/KPurUp9lQcJu4vnlLrS3pmqfyMtlT1YUUhRRu4FiJA6g2ebmhC9trWw= X-Received: by 2002:a62:5547:0:b029:2ec:8f20:4e2 with SMTP id j68-20020a6255470000b02902ec8f2004e2mr35836974pfb.71.1625059312047; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 06:21:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:21:40 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm51p-e6guGOncEyaaO0H3pk=5Q0zEJam1rTnz-Zub9J6eg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:03 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> w= rote: > > > How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for > > a doc string? > > See patch below. > > > >> (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp" > > >> - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs = Lisp. > > >> + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code. Fine with me. > > Did lisp-mode.el changed significantly during those 20 years? did > > Maclisp change significantly? If not, we don't have a problem more > > that we had it back then, do we? > > The problem is indeed not new, it's the same as 20 years ago. > It's just that noone bothered to fix it. ...because noone really uses MacLisp :-) Or Lisp in general :-( Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
Message-ID: <jwvk0mbcxxd.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:03:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 30 Jun
2021 15:37:23 +0300")
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> How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for
> a doc string?
See patch below.
> >> (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> >> - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
> >> + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> Did lisp-mode.el changed significantly during those 20 years? did
> Maclisp change significantly? If not, we don't have a problem more
> that we had it back then, do we?
The problem is indeed not new, it's the same as 20 years ago.
It's just that noone bothered to fix it.
Stefan
diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
index 59325d647d..99bf1a98c2 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
@@ -765,7 +765,7 @@ lisp-mode-menu
:help "Run an inferior Lisp process, input and output via buffer `*inferior-lisp*'"]))
(define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
- "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
+ "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
Commands:
Delete converts tabs to spaces as it moves back.
Blank lines separate paragraphs. Semicolons start comments.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 12:47:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 08:47:39 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56716 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lyZcx-0000aF-2o for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:47:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52654) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyZcv-0000a3-Dk for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:47:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36924) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyZcp-00023n-55; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:47:31 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4942 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyZco-0003yi-Ph; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:47:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:47:34 +0300 Message-Id: <83r1gjmsd5.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwv7dice192.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Tue, 29 Jun 2021 18:59:29 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52gX8NU=APJnVy6kWaEbHMnWNphWMXZWjgQks5JysGf9g@HIDDEN> <jwv7dice192.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 18:59:29 -0400 > > Same difference. It only works for Maclisp to the extent that Maclisp > is similar to Common Lisp and not because `lisp-mode` is a major mode > for both Common Lisp and Maclisp. > > > So I reckon lisp-mode wouldn't to a terrible job in most MacLisp > > programs. And maybe even SLY and a modern Common Lisp compiler could > > probably grok MacLisp or Franz Lisp code given sufficient > > hand-holding. > > IIRC they'd be surprised by the way arrays are treated: > > http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/array.html > > or "hunks": > > http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/hunks.html > > Also `lisp-mode` will happily misfontify and misindent `caseq` and `selectq`: > > http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/contro.html#CASEQ > > [ There are significant incompatibilities, of course. ] > > The fact that such errors in the handling of Maclisp have not been > addressed in `lisp-mode` in all these years (despite that Maclisp has > been a very stable target during those years) shows clearly that > `lisp-mode` does not try to be a major mode for Maclisp. We could say something about that to lower user expectations.
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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 1:35 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:25:45 +0100
> > Cc: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> >
> > > > - Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> > > > -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode comm=
and
> > > > -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for fi=
les
> > > > -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > > > + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Comm=
on
> > > > +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> > > > +lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose na=
mes
> > > > +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > >
> > > This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
> > > mention CL. If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
> > > could add that.
> >
> > The point is to make sure that noone is misinformed to think that
> > lisp-mode is a suitable ancestor for, say, scheme-mode or clojure-mode =
or
> > my-2021-lisp-mode.
>
> We can mention Scheme and Clojure there (as examples of languages that
> are NOT handled), if that's the issue. Or maybe you can describe
> those dialects that you'd like to exempt in some more general way?
Here's a very good way: dialects that are _not_ Common Lisp or its
ancestors. Which is what I wrote. But Stefan goes even farther and
would probably phrase it: dialetcts that are _not_ Common Lisp _period_.
He's probably right. Lisp mode is only for Common Lisp (or for some
language you invent that is a superset of Common Lisp).
> > So it's not true that this doesn't change anything: it removes an
> > ambiguity.
>
> Not in my eyes, no. I think you assign too much significance to the
> "ancestor" part, and rely on the reader to understand that
> significance.
`lisp-mode` shuoldn't be used for editing other things than Common Lisp.
It's _that_ simple. Neither should it be used as an ancestor for derived
modes which aim to edit languages that are not a superset of Common
Lisp. I think it's pretty obvious that current phrasing makes this action
plausible, when in reality it's a mistake. It will bring problems to this
hypothetical developer.
Don't know how else to explain it.
> > > > (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> > > > - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs=
Lisp.
> > > > + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> > >
> > > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> > > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
> >
> > That's true, I guess. The point is to make sure that no one gets the
> > temptation to derive new Lisp-ish modes based on lisp-mode for
> > languages that have no relation to CL. So what to you say to:
> >
> > "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and historically related Lisps"
> >
> > "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and its ancestors"
> >
> > "Major mode for editing code historically related to Common Lisp"
>
> Again, I'd like to understand better what misunderstandings are you
> trying to prevent.
Case in point: Phil Hagelberg in this discussion developed a Lisp-like
language, called "fennel" I believe. I believe he developed it in the
recent past. He used `lisp-mode` as the ancestor in `define-derived-mode`.
Because other long-running extensions for Common Lisp specifically
rely on lisp-mode-hook (which again, is for Common Lisp exclusively),
the presence of those extensions introduces problems that Phil has to
work around in this fennel-mode.el file. He also has to write more
code than we would have needed if he had used lisp-data-mode.
As far as I can tell, Phil used lisp-mode as an ancestor because
no lisp-data-mode was available/visible to him and because he
wanted to reuse some Lisp-editing code. A worthy goal. But because
of lisp-mode's proven specificity to Common Lisp, he also bought
himself some conflicts (that somehow the developers of Scheme mode
and Clojure mode managed to avoid). So the docstring fixes aim to
prevent that mistake.
Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 12:37:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 08:37:26 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56689 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lyZT4-0000K6-3c for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:37:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50270) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyZT2-0000Ju-Le for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:37:25 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36770) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyZSx-00054K-DU; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:37:19 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4317 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lyZSx-00034Z-2C; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:37:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:37:23 +0300 Message-Id: <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Tue, 29 Jun 2021 16:46:10 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxwo7td.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>, > 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 16:46:10 -0400 > > >> (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp" > >> - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp. > >> + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code. > > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps. > > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed. > > The question is to describe what this major mode is designed to do. How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for a doc string? > People who want to look at Maclisp code (or other defunct dialects) will > probably want to use `lisp-mode` for the simple reason that Maclisp is > reasonably close to Common Lisp so it's the closest major mode we have > to offer, but the user should not expect correct handling of Maclisp in > those places where it differs from Common Lisp, because `lisp-mode` is > written specifically for Common Lisp and not for Maclisp: compatibility > with Maclisp has not been taken into account for more than 20 > years, AFAIK. Did lisp-mode.el changed significantly during those 20 years? did Maclisp change significantly? If not, we don't have a problem more that we had it back then, do we?
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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:25:45 +0100
> Cc: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
>
> > > - Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> > > -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode command
> > > -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
> > > -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > > + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> > > +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> > > +lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
> > > +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> >
> > This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
> > mention CL. If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
> > could add that.
>
> The point is to make sure that noone is misinformed to think that
> lisp-mode is a suitable ancestor for, say, scheme-mode or clojure-mode or
> my-2021-lisp-mode.
We can mention Scheme and Clojure there (as examples of languages that
are NOT handled), if that's the issue. Or maybe you can describe
those dialects that you'd like to exempt in some more general way?
> So it's not true that this doesn't change anything: it removes an
> ambiguity.
Not in my eyes, no. I think you assign too much significance to the
"ancestor" part, and rely on the reader to understand that
significance.
> > > (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> > > - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
> > > + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> >
> > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
>
> That's true, I guess. The point is to make sure that no one gets the
> temptation to derive new Lisp-ish modes based on lisp-mode for
> languages that have no relation to CL. So what to you say to:
>
> "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and historically related Lisps"
>
> "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and its ancestors"
>
> "Major mode for editing code historically related to Common Lisp"
Again, I'd like to understand better what misunderstandings are you
trying to prevent. If we are only talking about Scheme and Clojure, I
think it's easier to mention them explicitly.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49278) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2021 09:44:45 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 30 05:44:45 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56468 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lyWlw-0008LR-Rz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 05:44:45 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f181.google.com ([209.85.210.181]:38450) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1lyWlr-0008L9-Q5 for 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 05:44:44 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f181.google.com with SMTP id c8so1905758pfp.5 for <49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 02:44:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XnpwFmKIWW/6/xlaHLPQ33KAR9QGc6tdXa8BJzFWYqk=; b=EPxPQSoSNFfapyKjKZHaERfnFVJxjQN1m2i/tXJOHQvjoJhaf2WyOCrvAN5lV+o69H hdTNPpuU6NACJeAVsAxs2moeYx+fID4dck8ht0RUbZHA8escZR3/h62lMEtgOkyKBOSC 8NxxxR25ESnTZDbSMAGWNHX+EWF0IMnoM0Fu71kxLWmnTt3LhuVgOUc+J/K1bI7n3XVT EUZPApkYXmpoFtVbUltVLdqmQPJO6sxWrmmoXrmDCIL8Ooa6D9+M/CVCnurkHxCZQ9t5 apLZZ2URfRF0AtPrMg/WxYtxxCee9zuW9BIx1Xda0MM49gKaImbzFuL21iEMl7U+nos+ 5YHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XnpwFmKIWW/6/xlaHLPQ33KAR9QGc6tdXa8BJzFWYqk=; b=GkgJ89R+I6/G6KWNDiWi1+LEl0Xwvhesfu671XMyAZQKraHQy570gsgNpinkKd1uz9 LVyqUcDMBSZG38jwNiGbucJVmFWpYbUSRFct6RIAKvOjg7nSispMhZRQNZzxT+zpKp3A yH4G5ts9eJjOHFweFric4qZCzeLPfOWJ/cAT8L3V8wcciNIJ3iw6Fw39mJ8+QIo8w6mn SFT5mqp4im1F6de5L9EXqFaDkbKRi2sVe8tKdcgKa9AVGxAA9j112VJDBt7Z+WK9fPer WTSedUuk+XCNqz6OICpfR44o0kdLard9UufmJkXTrd+eo0C1056GyrDTh9VOCk7KyTK1 3/mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531w3roLlLyTRjRgN90edARIE5Iau7Q4n4Qo+DPhNNsmCii+Mwd0 62Zsls+LIxX05qiezzkfHiiLHr1JO+vGWCd7VEwSdHuq X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwt8473rpQlRHDqS1JEolljFsadx6Bep8u/doNarg/62QMCzZsjaiRU601LgJaFztMznY2QMlQv3RoW8C8GBcc= X-Received: by 2002:a63:cf02:: with SMTP id j2mr3017267pgg.411.1625046273799; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 02:44:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87y2asa6lg.fsf@HIDDEN> <87eeckdn9n.fsf@whirlwind> In-Reply-To: <87eeckdn9n.fsf@whirlwind> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:44:22 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm53tk3z_LD6E_B6tuEaMofhvq2g2NTO7EWs4Xt6dWONenw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp To: Phil Hagelberg <phil@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49278 Cc: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 4:51 AM Phil Hagelberg <phil@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > In addition, there is in Emacs 27.1 a new lisp-data-mode. That is > > useful for defining using define-derived-mode to make Lisp-like major > > modes derived from commonly found Lisp-style functionality such as > > parenthesis-matching syntax tables and such. > > I don't think this is a very good argument; as the author of a major > mode for a lisp language, it never would have occurred to me to even > look at lisp-data-mode because its name indicates that it's not intended > for use writing programs. Yes, I know code is data, etc, but this name > still strongly implies a different use. Maybe you were using an old Emacs, else reading the manual at "Example modes" would give you an example. And if you know code is data in Lisp, chances are other Lisp enthusiasts also know that. The manual reference isn't much, but it's not like Lisp is the biggest thing out there anyway, so I don't know if a full section on this base mode is worth it. But if the name is bugging you, Stefan once proposed "lispish-mode". I think it's very slightly silly, and the current name is accurate in meani= ng, but we could make a snazzier alias. > If the docstring for lisp-mode is to be changed, (rather than adding a > common-lisp-mode for common lisp like they should have done at the > outset) This is a tangent: but the outset was probably before Common Lisp was a thing. The first VCS-checked version of that file is from 1991, but I suspect it was around for much longer. At the time, people were really trying to kill off their own Lisps and meeting expensively in commit= tees to converge into a shiny new language. So Common Lisp mode was really to become "the Lisp". > hen it would be better if a replacement mode were introduced > which other lisp major modes could derive from. Otherwise there's no way > to enable paredit-mode (for instance) across all lisps. Deriving off > prog-mode isn't a very good solution there. Yes, this is why the prescription is to derive from lisp-data-mode. And you can (add-hook 'lisp-data-mode 'paredit-mode). If you want to make scheme mode and clojure mode and such derive from lisp-data-mode, it's probably not very hard: patches welcome. But here I'm just correcting a bug in the documentation. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> Yeah, but fair to say MacLisp hasn't evolved tremendously in
> those years (and neither has Common Lisp sadly).
Same difference. It only works for Maclisp to the extent that Maclisp
is similar to Common Lisp and not because `lisp-mode` is a major mode
for both Common Lisp and Maclisp.
> So I reckon lisp-mode wouldn't to a terrible job in most MacLisp
> programs. And maybe even SLY and a modern Common Lisp compiler could
> probably grok MacLisp or Franz Lisp code given sufficient
> hand-holding.
IIRC they'd be surprised by the way arrays are treated:
http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/array.html
or "hunks":
http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/hunks.html
Also `lisp-mode` will happily misfontify and misindent `caseq` and `selectq`:
http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/contro.html#CASEQ
[ There are significant incompatibilities, of course. ]
The fact that such errors in the handling of Maclisp have not been
addressed in `lisp-mode` in all these years (despite that Maclisp has
been a very stable target during those years) shows clearly that
`lisp-mode` does not try to be a major mode for Maclisp.
Stefan
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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 9:46 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>
> >> + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> >> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
>
> I think we should remove "or its ancestor dialects" here.
That also works for me, but as you said, it might work reasonably
well for MacLisp etc, too.
> >> (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> >> - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Li=
sp.
> >> + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
>
> The question is to describe what this major mode is designed to do.
>
> People who want to look at Maclisp code (or other defunct dialects) will
> probably want to use `lisp-mode` for the simple reason that Maclisp is
> reasonably close to Common Lisp so it's the closest major mode we have
> to offer, but the user should not expect correct handling of Maclisp in
> those places where it differs from Common Lisp, because `lisp-mode` is
> written specifically for Common Lisp and not for Maclisp: compatibility
> with Maclisp has not been taken into account for more than 20
> years, AFAIK.
Yeah, but fair to say MacLisp hasn't evolved tremendously in
those years (and neither has Common Lisp sadly). So I reckon
lisp-mode wouldn't to a terrible job in most MacLisp programs.
And maybe even SLY and a modern Common Lisp compiler
could probably grok MacLisp or Franz Lisp code given sufficient
hand-holding.
Anyway, I hope the main point is across: remove suggestion
that it may be used to derive modes for _new_ lisps unrelated
to Common Lisp.
--=20
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
Message-ID: <jwvr1gkflot.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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>> + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
>> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
I think we should remove "or its ancestor dialects" here.
>> (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
>> - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
>> + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
The question is to describe what this major mode is designed to do.
People who want to look at Maclisp code (or other defunct dialects) will
probably want to use `lisp-mode` for the simple reason that Maclisp is
reasonably close to Common Lisp so it's the closest major mode we have
to offer, but the user should not expect correct handling of Maclisp in
those places where it differs from Common Lisp, because `lisp-mode` is
written specifically for Common Lisp and not for Maclisp: compatibility
with Maclisp has not been taken into account for more than 20
years, AFAIK.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 7:16 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:06:19 +0100
> > Cc: monnier@HIDDEN
> >
> > - Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> > -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode command
> > -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
> > -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> > +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> > +lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
> > +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
>
> This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
> mention CL. If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
> could add that.
The point is to make sure that noone is misinformed to think that
lisp-mode is a suitable ancestor for, say, scheme-mode or clojure-mode or
my-2021-lisp-mode. At the time this was written, all the "general-purpose
Lisp dialects" (minus Scheme) would be handled by Lisp mode. But
this is just not true anymore. It's for Common Lisp and probably still
works decently for, say, the defunct MacLisp and Franz Lisp.
So it's not true that this doesn't change anything: it removes an
ambiguity. But I'm fine with any other phrasing that also removes
this ambiguity. Make a proposal.
> > (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> > - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lis=
p.
> > + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
>
> Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
That's true, I guess. The point is to make sure that no one gets the
temptation to derive new Lisp-ish modes based on lisp-mode for
languages that have no relation to CL. So what to you say to:
"Major mode for editing Common Lisp and historically related Lisps"
"Major mode for editing Common Lisp and its ancestors"
"Major mode for editing code historically related to Common Lisp"
?
Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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> From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:06:19 +0100
> Cc: monnier@HIDDEN
>
> - Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode command
> -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
> -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> + Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> +lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
> +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
mention CL. If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
could add that.
> (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> - "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
> + "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:06:19 +0100
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Hi,
It's been the status quo for a long time now that Lisp Mode is the Emacs
major mode for editing Common Lisp programs. The SLIME and SLY packages
are popular amongst CL programmers and have relied on this fact for many
years (SLIME in I think has been the tool of choice for Emacs+CL for
more than 15 years).
In addition, there are many references to "Common Lisp" in lisp-mode.el.
In addition, non-CL-lisps have also historically used their own major
modes derived from prog-mode. Examples are Emacs lisp mode, Scheme mode
and Clojure mode.
In addition, there is in Emacs 27.1 a new lisp-data-mode. That is
useful for defining using define-derived-mode to make Lisp-like major
modes derived from commonly found Lisp-style functionality such as
parenthesis-matching syntax tables and such.
However, the docstring of lisp-mode, the function, still states that it
is used for "Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp". Likely this docstring
was written when Common Lisp was still young and intended to group its
closely-related Lisp brethren (MacLisp, Franz Lisp, etc) in mind.
Those variants are now gone, we should update lisp-mode.el's docstring
to reflect the state of things, since a fraction of people seem to be
misusing lisp-mode to derive new major modes for new niche Lisps, where
they should be using lisp-data-mode (perhaps they are not aware of it).
See also:
https://gitlab.com/technomancy/fennel-mode/-/issues/11
https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/issues/339
https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/18646/why-isnt-emacs-lisp-mode-=
derived-from-lisp-mode/18652#18652
Jo=C3=A3o
To fix this, I suggest this documentation patch.
diff --git a/doc/emacs/building.texi b/doc/emacs/building.texi
index 8de93867ba..7d655449c5 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/building.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/building.texi
@@ -1764,10 +1764,10 @@ External Lisp
@cindex mode, Lisp
@cindex Common Lisp
=20
- Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
-general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp. Its mode command
-is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
-whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
+ Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
+Lisp or its ancestor dialects. Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
+lisp-mode}. Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
+end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
=20
@findex run-lisp
@vindex inferior-lisp-program
diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
index 59325d647d..99bf1a98c2 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
@@ -765,7 +765,7 @@ lisp-mode-menu
:help "Run an inferior Lisp process, input and output via buffer `*in=
ferior-lisp*'"]))
=20
(define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
- "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
+ "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
Commands:
Delete converts tabs to spaces as it moves back.
Blank lines separate paragraphs. Semicolons start comments.
João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49278; Package emacs.
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