Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Sep 2023 16:02:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 05 12:02:07 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58052 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qdYVD-00026l-9X for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Sep 2023 12:02:07 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]:44467) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1qdYUw-00025m-SV for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Sep 2023 12:02:05 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-4fe27849e6aso4248315e87.1 for <63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693929704; x=1694534504; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=92sf1VcrbwVFGyvmCtQHh69IA5BRFKdrC6g2tkiLtTo=; b=QZjp5s/H/NKPFCHcKF/G95viO63J1WGSOqWAQ5+QDInbyN+/6M9EJlLZ0DOoWVaRPB kv7UZT4HyM6mUfvYgw61HtnWdnBAUlW7EIUsT1lJdxuXOjTKckI+5DEmQstUfCQx3j8s SSkl7GeuVnpsqDzlRSpofM0PCPlpVExTEAiMbC0yuRq3QEUwIBcIu+cKTb+f7W8KQiCj N1NmjKPVazSRlnOdq+nhkVZKiLhPY3WOuXzhdbnvugLe9Gw4f10/GH+eYtCEozqLTs6b cvcRFuMJ3cvklMRDYC3pqRXzV9VzkseU/nmvP5TIIE/7SfTSIXStb8XxmWWZZF5X0wH+ J45Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693929704; x=1694534504; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=92sf1VcrbwVFGyvmCtQHh69IA5BRFKdrC6g2tkiLtTo=; b=ZlHHB5ben+QqqLzGRlWVDSJRupsHu9/v05rQEJHYc91DowqA4XQxD6B+7gPs1K1ExT bN45MJsoszXKlMK0oqLKPmTT/8oNQ5CgehaY0Qux3MI27AQv8DTtuGGXrzjerqZDYOEe 72uSSBMccxo/p3YfYhAtALdvWViqTbI3o53zsVJOJXGw10HlbY8bMv6/qC3cmeS6Ou4Q UrPSKriUErI3pwCnsFiL6ae0P9cRLQLcJY5wUPDzQ/dYG9XcOfpOH9NMf1QkykgvrE1k nT23aMAJsg2UFNrl1hyNY8uuX1g+BhLRLy05GGAlglwznBG/yp+zhx1WPt+io5hPp107 +eVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyg1iuX/FyTFwgHwKlDefeJ38O4PMom7tq7fOB8UBACYMELEfQw +BfrsP1YcFCIkqGpxoMiUm0yB5ivbdUh4djKcsyv+sXxRzI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFKg19kBGSDgThtYcS7vtBY1v6RLrKLB1Nq87C0oGGDjZkc95s2h2kxMrcC7bFlKNz60QOfs9B11RdYToiZT78= X-Received: by 2002:a19:5e11:0:b0:4fd:fabf:b6ee with SMTP id s17-20020a195e11000000b004fdfabfb6eemr206006lfb.9.1693929704267; Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 5 Sep 2023 09:01:43 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <83cz3qtyno.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:07:39 +0300") References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@HIDDEN> <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> <83cz3qtyno.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2023 09:01:43 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkmmAb5LFVJL1mp0fv_6OmRNqHXH85HCkbLDsO6UZq8Ly8g@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> >> Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 >> >> > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at >> > all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. >> >> Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed >> in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, >> as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years. >> >> Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. > > Let's see that patch of yours, then. Oliver, did you have a chance to look into this? Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 16:07:20 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 12:07:19 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prhfr-0008OA-MA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33196) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prhfp-0008Nw-BW for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prhfj-00032s-RL; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Iq6gLJVtGvoSORCPguwdN9UY7zzMteAJKo0Yg5SNGao=; b=U5jEL79Qi0xq BG8/F877PWCHRUtKqOVmGPgirmlb3ApOqmrbQVpD16ZUOXSR7f8gb8+E3cTZi4s+suTZ/DcDbW5HC pUHDa3RSgwqtk0qdu3EwNnTuQ6zeeXVZm4o1Qdd9JXaoicZ6rzJToazFSL98ghLljTSzwVQA3c5C7 nwDLJde8MapuYUrvrDDHL5sFrBhBZdi9t/C82nLDSJqfggAN4r6QGvmw4WNEyeXtF4KtANMUydYJ0 E98/wUS/S7qxO4OuxOdHgAFLcYwzvwdM65srEyw8/1Wqs8JXJfUc9CxoLctD8r/emFzxI0Y0+gYMv WBpuZdzj2J9oR2s3wIDukg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prhfi-0007b5-0X; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:07:39 +0300 Message-Id: <83cz3qtyno.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@HIDDEN> <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> > Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 > > > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at > > all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. > > Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed > in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, > as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years. > > Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. Let's see that patch of yours, then. Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 13:53:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 09:53:29 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54634 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prfaL-0003ov-7n for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:53:29 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:44650) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1prfaG-0003ok-DK for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:53:28 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@HIDDEN) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1157E2003DD; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682517203; bh=UAHOHWi7gROgMhIe12hlkfYgu5Szm10rDB1RfhF+V3k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=sogIoRl2cCyplI60d1gWB1ViD7If9D2TSXT2t+6u6ibq3mqiJmt+hufo6qT1IXvPW mh2Dz3bH3i/ZX1iWHGbkCGVbzHIgfhB+jl329AFHcnBfYUJeIj04IXmOSEHXVQRJ4m HPLExB33otlyn8GTNnUVhjQ9185zOfUaRFMAR9fmGFxMQKZpGYRRVlQfoAYiiMLnzI QuQ/HgbqAZqBzS14++OgsJlCqYoiBxZm9SwFCBFEw9bR4LXOMOpgDbN0HsM0v63w/p GOsT23WHOE9A4gkR39xnWIdJBDydRhq2qIvfJeAkyFpkrKLUGaQRAnAm9DJIYkF3x8 ybja6bvX8KavQ== From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 Message-ID: <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at > all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years. Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. -- Olivier Certner
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 13:32:02 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 09:32:02 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54608 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prfFZ-00039O-TY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:32:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prfFW-000396-5e for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:32:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prfFQ-00054U-GI; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:31:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=cFF2jmX31MW8d4NCHWEZTE0dZZe9s4hEK/xhVLEFuyM=; b=Ld71MdUE6thI 8VL4Cz1x/gxH+Ji0wft1nZcVbadOo/QfVdVwQ27aVFK9aCSKNKGZkB6K8GzM8D3mqSK9yM7vcpMFJ nAZTfGcw+bZ0fmarNdtUsAXYbU1mpWfva4R9LLnCjYhljvFc9pPxXgST85fIiSFNhPk3sHifqH/8L 51rUUqMukTsZJmwqUkKsb10qz70zQWbcCOYDi9xSJr8vCEveI5Y0bGErg2wke5DOnKqPgQ2iIrIZQ uMmU50aTx0PzVNqBkvd9qRrJLwLsl/tp1HH0AuxGmdX296y/1MHyLD/Q+liUdfrCjVKZqTxU1RcJZ X2B1/Uthay5q7Pb0ILwQbQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prfFQ-0008NJ-0F; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:31:52 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 16:32:21 +0300 Message-Id: <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:21 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> <83ttx3szmr.fsf@HIDDEN> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> > Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:21 +0200 > > > If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding > > them. But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that > > they do change. > > I thought this was clear, but apparently not. I mentioned the possibility of a > change, yes, because you and I care about backwards compatibility. To quote > you: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long > time". > > There may be changes in the project styles, maybe next month, maybe in ten > years, maybe in twenty. I do not think the probability is 0 over such a long > period of time. What I would not want is you or someone else telling me in 10 > or 20 years, after such a change: "I don't think we can change a style that > was in use for such a long time". What I want instead is that, e.g., "freebsd" > can be changed as necessary. I specifically do not want to then be told to > create another style named "freebsd2" or whatever. For that to be possible, > users must be warned that these styles, although almost always stable, are > not, and will not, be set in stone for eternity, contrary to, perhaps, "bsd" > or "whitesmith". And I even offered a scheme with additional styles that will > never change, if you think that is useful (I think it might be and is so cheap > to implement that I think we should do it anyway, even if in the end nobody > uses it). > > Is that clear now? Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 13:09:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 09:09:30 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54549 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pretl-0002YB-Qg for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:09:30 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:11392) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1pretg-0002Xw-FF for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:09:28 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@HIDDEN) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1015E2003CA; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682514563; bh=UV/fYGLllL4wGVecdjBH/bR2Quf7SkH2HUm1yRxAR7c=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=hhH7X8aKlDTVFHD/tTUA0dayxmBFxeJ5EQgforlEWZA9cBJPCIftGOUKjGlD2mFZv 3ZA7rfN2VO2DuJNm8KQgjso529U2FRXVf8DMNks4HRh0DKpdPawZJrb+lZ4ARL5dVV DKlpQkqlL59fyJLsBKv+4WFslNeN3yqKHkzVJKrepND4Jxi6DDSpW7AAROz7SPBQQl VCEgjQZOk26cYVubjqh6ekxR4rXN69UrpyJzveILgYQ2zqoWKwlvF82t04I9L9GU/q oda7PBLrp92C0t8ZfGuGSg041ghqDvMtqj7Bj3NX4SspyfbUZbZiyFbunOeHAsLFgw kG5qBChNOz/tw== From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:21 +0200 Message-ID: <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83ttx3szmr.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> <83ttx3szmr.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding > them. But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that > they do change. I thought this was clear, but apparently not. I mentioned the possibility of a change, yes, because you and I care about backwards compatibility. To quote you: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long time". There may be changes in the project styles, maybe next month, maybe in ten years, maybe in twenty. I do not think the probability is 0 over such a long period of time. What I would not want is you or someone else telling me in 10 or 20 years, after such a change: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long time". What I want instead is that, e.g., "freebsd" can be changed as necessary. I specifically do not want to then be told to create another style named "freebsd2" or whatever. For that to be possible, users must be warned that these styles, although almost always stable, are not, and will not, be set in stone for eternity, contrary to, perhaps, "bsd" or "whitesmith". And I even offered a scheme with additional styles that will never change, if you think that is useful (I think it might be and is so cheap to implement that I think we should do it anyway, even if in the end nobody uses it). Is that clear now? -- Olivier Certner
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 10:31:44 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 06:31:43 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54363 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prcR5-000433-JN for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39822) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prcR4-00042q-IG for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prcQz-0001kY-9K; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=bhbqT5biZ4N57BgToSHFHK3c6TxbbOqp7DkcAba/Gc0=; b=SRF+HiISXg1I SVYHfIgF6ebQFbKhCAvNMAAW+6GvfaC5SWAoyWc7JEXSbriu83GQjuzDCNUDj7SDoVhVE4FA9squT 2q0yWWNn61CKrqDcC6laNvvtQ6B+qE2lJx29Nz4HE+CDTfid1DaxLF8NDTjJkoqfaW4XtIIeshOrm wFSAJoIJpYehQtDBx3tkkJO52e3xSLmYNU/xd4HaF+UjZ5d1F2Zj+J0eTS/N8lAFazmdU6JvNit2r wW5DPUCddkSQ01nTYu8OKYXHoJIj6MU2fPbSH9cC5OFmKIlauEKLyTFuNn7lMfUHAVFp6T6/TZebn qQ0EJjiywBEO99Sq3qQkIg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prcQn-0001LW-VI; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 13:31:56 +0300 Message-Id: <83ttx3szmr.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:28 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> <83354nuhtr.fsf@HIDDEN> <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> > Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:28 +0200 > > > > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just > > > be updated on a best-effort basis. > > > > The "best-effort" part is what bothers me. We introduce these new > > styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we > > basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow > > those projects, except by luck? Does that make sense? > > By luck? The last changes in these styles with a practical consequence for CC > mode were done more than 20 years ago. Had the changes proposed here been done > at that time, users would have been able to use the right style since then. > > Truth is, users not having the right style would be extremely unlucky, given > the rate of changes (practically zero). These styles are *intended* to follow > these projects' practice. And they will so more than 99% of the time. Of > course, if a style changes and requires a CC style modification, then someone > will have to submit it and in the meantime users will have to live with the > discrepancy. Is that what really bothers you? That's what best effort means. > Again, this will be useful to the relevant users more than 99% of the time. If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding them. But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that they do change.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 09:31:35 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 05:31:34 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54284 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prbUs-0008D3-M0 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:31:34 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:24580) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1prbUp-0008Ct-Nl for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:31:32 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@HIDDEN) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B7EA200595; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:29 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682501490; bh=4OUYOY3vlqrHSDO/Uv6LqmP+/F2iC9S1vVuXtIIudYU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=BlkCTuFdudkjH0KBkQVMijhFMN52bm4QTL0t8+fIPsfszO3Y8bP3EcIGCQWXdGfAx Lu/DaLrAQwvdhVfjLddDpoiqCMwUVVoPubMpDHycsRht+hZKHV7haEknWcCqttUkhx 0tEkfQETIxHRAfqQuV6ZmOjaGrCutZ7GinqQVpwTu5H7MLdxjMkaNApbB6vCDLjyOi lwtR1WDkBfD7WdcVwo96g3qP6loGRmay6Ca5S9wiAk8iA+GyamxqIb1KLnMlpUAKIp zf67CR0aCOB54PIYyeGhtSuX8RJ0D0j7LmAlq/NdRiWk/YIAMJW0tD1sTTQe9qhnV4 Mu7iO84Rw1lqQ== From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:28 +0200 Message-ID: <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83354nuhtr.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> <83354nuhtr.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just > > be updated on a best-effort basis. > > The "best-effort" part is what bothers me. We introduce these new > styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we > basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow > those projects, except by luck? Does that make sense? By luck? The last changes in these styles with a practical consequence for CC mode were done more than 20 years ago. Had the changes proposed here been done at that time, users would have been able to use the right style since then. Truth is, users not having the right style would be extremely unlucky, given the rate of changes (practically zero). These styles are *intended* to follow these projects' practice. And they will so more than 99% of the time. Of course, if a style changes and requires a CC style modification, then someone will have to submit it and in the meantime users will have to live with the discrepancy. Is that what really bothers you? That's what best effort means. Again, this will be useful to the relevant users more than 99% of the time. -- Olivier Certner
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 09:13:17 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 05:13:17 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54256 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prbDB-0007il-9r for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39802) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prbD9-0007iY-1P for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:16 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prbD2-00047p-Kv; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=aWfsHDxWxrwvNr4/XBuZCgf0DE7rxK3/bhjtHI/ev08=; b=DJzZMvX0N2qr B7jPuYrYiQmVgiZtTxTmZA4+9ISgDhe5SDLl+bnie4mF2y4Y3Qc067xKC3CS+zJWMb0XWABJGdJjC KZBOmc3/sriZbG5zfu9TgIaDocV4dYthLuVHRvlcrqKdgtG7BVko3W0aKQUSnKwfZQl0pVoAkuyq5 Nhz3/kB/Uf4t0LBp+hB5vGRyOmm0ofwPBnUtMEnk30NK07uVDyVQ8yzLh+ZgHnibElLWFP0/OIDIB LIYm0Wd69DXFBc8jHT1L/DlA50/X5HoAZXW9t8a1/y+NZmhTpu1m3eq5RCCqg924uBC6Qy5ondgdg iz+/8zrl1eaGiSTNNwL3NQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prbD1-0001Z7-PH; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:13:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83354nuhtr.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> <83cz3rur7v.fsf@HIDDEN> <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> > Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200 > > > If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding > > projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves > > to follow them from now to eternity? That's a non-trivial maintenance > > burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves, > > and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change. > > But I never said we would commit to that. On the contrary, what I would like > is that the documentation says clearly that "freebsd" and "openbsd" may > change, so that people are aware they cannot rely on these styles to always > remain the same (contrary to the old styles). So that's rather a non- > commitment. > > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just be > updated on a best-effort basis. The "best-effort" part is what bothers me. We introduce these new styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow those projects, except by luck? Does that make sense?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 07:28:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 03:28:23 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prZZe-0004Zt-M1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 03:28:22 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:18702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1prZZc-0004Zf-2V for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 03:28:20 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@HIDDEN) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 85D7E200594; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682494098; bh=8x/PF6xy8TMLxEh4o32lwM32t3w8HzKuSxdWT6AikKE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=kYhKRmO0Ldneys/ZtV5DEo1LT/ibnFRKq9IyVq9ylqI+mIQkux1w2g/k8GD07F1b9 6J4RW7u2XHy97g6Fv4mEO6ASsulGn6mSd/ZlMxYFIML8s92LscBhJb24ZPZpLvzNgU q9CDNNJDoW9XDVO3gxQBGD839Qh/Ejdgo1KOfO8rTNanqiQslEETz3BBxN50rypRop 7hPN2lPh5NPIZLv4M3e44RSwsCeeq8+4sgxWu5rxbj1GDSts6x+fqvX6oCFhnXS1D9 BKMIwxiDW1JVNOJWIrCtHlxqNMZIXpnb7O9P48ldeErzBpvccUg/1PUGvNA2FoIk+Z AYufSiL4ZlnuQ== From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200 Message-ID: <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83cz3rur7v.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> <83cz3rur7v.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, > If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding > projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves > to follow them from now to eternity? That's a non-trivial maintenance > burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves, > and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change. But I never said we would commit to that. On the contrary, what I would like is that the documentation says clearly that "freebsd" and "openbsd" may change, so that people are aware they cannot rely on these styles to always remain the same (contrary to the old styles). So that's rather a non- commitment. Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just be updated on a best-effort basis. Is that OK? -- Olivier Certner
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 05:50:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 01:50:29 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54050 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prY2v-0001hj-8v for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56780) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prY2r-0001hO-3C for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prY2l-0001Yh-Ch; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=AaOCcGC5sGG5UGpWznnAfjumyEKRceauV42EHWAq4ek=; b=BdO0XEY48pte u2o3dm6IfnLgUj2V+nUD+HQ5Ad4xdS/PuH1xj0sFv2M/ncKP9a/eLWBx0XY8jvkdGdOQuMSwL1bRp Z64fdiyOgT6WchaaNVrj0RKVg6lzlrD0sIJ5wkDYC5x3J11mLTuL74HhR+0RQqj/zq0FP1Ly6ABwL iygTNudRPgktAYlyaZRdyNLgtuIKohGQHFiVe9KUCODzUlZv2HdQxmCXxIcqfCWWKsh0ei2qKApr9 cxrf+ms+VyDBzWvohOXQDZ6/Gi7YD7OTQptnRGUcrNrqyIpkrVjlBvUrGd4T52j0kCF+BL9tm8wxU DG/jwi3Anqe6XpctnYphlg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prY2h-0002FV-9N; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 08:50:44 +0300 Message-Id: <83cz3rur7v.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@HIDDEN> <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> > Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200 > > After more reading, it seems that this "bsd" is in fact Allman's style, which > indeed differs for the style used by BSD projects. So, I'm pondering with > using "bsd-knf" instead (for Kernel Normal Form), which appears to be the > dedicated term (and is even documented in Wikipedia). Renaming old styles is also a problem, but new styles can be named as we see fit, of course. > What I intend to do with "freebsd" and "openbsd" is to have styles reflecting > the current practice for these projects. Which means they can (in fact, most > probably will) be changed in the future according to how they amend their > style guidelines. If this policy of changes is documented, is that OK? If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves to follow them from now to eternity? That's a non-trivial maintenance burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves, and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2023 20:57:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 25 16:57:36 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53686 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prPjE-00037e-Gh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 16:57:36 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:24728) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1prPjA-00037T-7N for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 16:57:36 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@HIDDEN) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC980200709; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682456250; bh=1WHFeI77lPsaR9tuoLWU+xAI/O5DSsCvcDw5nRclxCM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=f13gZgouKi3CwZRk2WEJWXBw8CDRhx1mF1vpxayW7rjmU1bKvyjl6qHnvns6CjNt3 5eGrd3pzdHzN2mjfIb0aPXFzIayQBrPF0r0NE4NRSPxWeUjspVEIkvaYUg5VmU6YkV 5l9oI+t3u7BipaslJvwdyG5Odkai4jrvm10uCZ7vIJRilO8v5BWfj82rEi3m5DpZ3t j2C+jE5vWQKOd3sSMUUKHYi4jFAWLMl+vREfO1Ob8Kyc7O0WjIwN2ZrDVTN/v8km06 wJL7DH7cPU1sxHLa2ETqe+Q8a/4q10CeozofALZ8QIePXUUMDDzY+N1WKCfN0wggN9 r1BQixxgjS19g== From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200 Message-ID: <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > ENOPATCH, Yes. See end of initial message + was temporarily distracted. > but in any case, I don't think we can change a style that > was in use for such a long time. So I suggest instead to create a new > style, say bsd2 or somesuch. That may be a problem, not so much for the ancient "bsd", but for the new ones. After more reading, it seems that this "bsd" is in fact Allman's style, which indeed differs for the style used by BSD projects. So, I'm pondering with using "bsd-knf" instead (for Kernel Normal Form), which appears to be the dedicated term (and is even documented in Wikipedia). What I intend to do with "freebsd" and "openbsd" is to have styles reflecting the current practice for these projects. Which means they can (in fact, most probably will) be changed in the future according to how they amend their style guidelines. If this policy of changes is documented, is that OK? For those who want to use the current style for whatever project they have and don't want it to change afterwards, we could, e.g., make "freebsd" an alias of some "freebsd1" style (let's say, for version 1), and they would "freebsd1", i.e., a specific version that will not change. I'm not sure if this will be useful for some people, but at least it is cheap to do so we should probably do it even if in the end nobody would use it. I think I need a little bit more reading and pondering (and your answers) before I can actually submit meaningful patches. (So the interruption might have been a blessing.) Thanks. -- Olivier Certner
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2023 18:02:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 25 14:02:56 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53549 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prN0A-0006Sn-62 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prN04-0006SV-E5 for 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:52 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prMzy-0004SV-L6; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Jen5mT4r2+NHY4kLerbxspj5iby8s/XeTikZahZVB1Y=; b=UktBFDAcOGar 7oR2SrxSQCRWE8VK3ePs5nLq1YOF1jLGE0YYyPpMcZTmSdpSsfeNYV/iJogPTZyf6e3lU6dsnYpcw Wl7CyKeGmkJiT0cKfLr+vHSYScR+suCCOX3JjfrwPJeeG/qTxfTzszg6fBNe389GMEf7tIouxKSts EfY3g1/zadTIlpGwJS1Cy2dyhS+RgPa4/palrRR5+nDydp3eODghRNlN7Uqk5BJv/kNtcj0JghOQV +EGFg1SERo3EL22snl5dI/tqpAC3bksVEUZ1GOBxpHllTgQZueEYaHJquh91OYx2UoycJ1MTLoSns R89RDL3UCGOoo1a4oIMr4g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1prMzx-00068P-KS; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 21:03:09 +0300 Message-Id: <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:09 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:09 +0200 > > I noticed that the current "bsd" CC mode style is not compliant with what all BSDs have been doing since their inception. This is the first patch. ENOPATCH, but in any case, I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long time. So I suggest instead to create a new style, say bsd2 or somesuch.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2023 17:49:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 25 13:49:25 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53527 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1prMn7-00066c-Jy for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:25 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:46858) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1prMn6-00066U-5I for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1prMn0-0006dI-M3 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:20 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([2a01:e0c:1:1599::11]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>) id 1prMmw-0000YV-QT for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:16 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@HIDDEN) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53DA12018BB for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682444950; bh=cmE+jV6t8+pRVvHhdlVgkynZWsmQ3xY1BjY2DtsGYMM=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=Iljf+fnOOgnl7/CPPhE5ZpnUCfRZ38TCIiXlKUBkLqqp4gU8SDJ2shE55qyg0Daz9 xhqt+X5X7iB1YF7QFvC9lx9hN9YwJ90BCbrWAOmpRXcUau/c9pwgsPC/tegXOopo1j t1tqUC1I4FMtcKSL3BCI3qDRGVOsiAi4pmWHVCJdUfiVw9rr1dxgDkJw4hmxaJuaYU 3kpcg0noygsJUs8paZLvjIp22Jpptyu3fqOn9b0ogUpMKKMH3A4Eihpk6t07p24HK/ g+gq/4V3AdhysF8iUTXxYF5HcH1bOIy5fq4n6iFh2Wq0dxa7v68Vrkf4zpZ7ps0bmn 9QBC6I3L/6F4w== From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN> To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Subject: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:09 +0200 Message-ID: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:e0c:1:1599::11; envelope-from=ocert.dev@HIDDEN; helo=smtp2-g21.free.fr X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Hi, I noticed that the current "bsd" CC mode style is not compliant with what all BSDs have been doing since their inception. This is the first patch. Also, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have been having more stringent requirements (as documented in their style(9) manpage; for more than 20 years). So the second patch creates specific "freebsd" and "openbsd" styles deriving from "bsd" and adding just the two additional requirements. Patches to be attached after the bug report is created and assigned an ID. Regards. -- Olivier Certner
Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#63072; Package emacs.
Full text available.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.