Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2024 18:45:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 14:45:26 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sBIs1-0002xv-QB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2024 14:45:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sBIs0-0002xh-DP for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2024 14:45:25 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sBIrm-0004mP-Hd; Sun, 26 May 2024 14:45:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=WZ7uGnTEaZjTGU8+mrdU2UVfCxqyBY8kKednE5JuolY=; b=a3eRwT2XDPdd nGVq9rigjbOJu1BY1xONaekZfJ/Nfa1flebLe11+5T0Qmgr+b9bgSymYRHXRbvHt4h0pF8HeitUE6 3qDUw0Gw1tNloQBB+YwQ85FnlWY39cLpg2NGvWeNBpe8VkWyuSfrxBz3k/d0esNbOnAxFJdMxxY7C IjqbeIjHyBKLoAExQk+acbJZaJ/ZD7FdgP6x7Go1OugKoZ1qy6kN88XNfBQ6/r5Hv21Yzo213R0ws 4yr33BT815lX8a163xTxJEDjjPUklUUJW4Pmbv2aHcpd3bbiyeg4aeuXLWsmIMR0oLDFhiTevwYDE jf/4rPZxAk88nNfN5nXoiw==; Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 21:45:07 +0300 Message-Id: <86zfscv2do.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwv1q5o8na9.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Sun, 26 May 2024 14:03:26 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnHo=myA1yJ84tSq1kiosxzP9zU_2FuOiaFkkN4JjahRA@HIDDEN> <86sey5vsn7.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv1q5o8na9.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, > 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 14:03:26 -0400 > > > I'd be happier if we waited with this till Emacs 31. This will let > > people more time to see the change and react to it, if they want. > > For warnings that can't be caught at compile-time and that can't be > fixed by end-users, maybe we should get into the habit of activating them > only in "dev builds". I might agree with this, but I think the intent in this case was to cause all the Lisp programmers out there to migrate to the brave new world, and most of those don't do "dev builds". In fact, my impression from reading this and the bug list is that most people who track the master branch build Emacs for production -- with all the default optimizations and without --enable-checking. So it could be that "dev builds" include exactly two people: you and me ;-)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
In-Reply-To: <86sey5vsn7.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 26 May
2024 12:17:48 +0300")
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References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 14:03:26 -0400
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> I'd be happier if we waited with this till Emacs 31. This will let
> people more time to see the change and react to it, if they want.
For warnings that can't be caught at compile-time and that can't be
fixed by end-users, maybe we should get into the habit of activating them
only in "dev builds".
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2024 09:18:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 05:18:08 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sBA11-0003jj-OE for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2024 05:18:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59358) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sBA0y-0003jF-Tu for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2024 05:18:05 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sBA0l-00050e-J2; Sun, 26 May 2024 05:17:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=FZ5xkkXVdCbKq6SbK5yNYQgSClkjytRb2EUdi4/KZNs=; b=hasl6/UC0cmQ Zr/3vFFWAtb5zAk0nC5ArbQ13saMiy9bMw3CFi4/Is4jy9dMNTY5vF3zhcq4jlhxzmd6JNVcdYmyQ OvJpZSj2ZageR1HtoUMrBfmXYeGfqGqpGvHCzYm8TFLHO4tXVE2bDKGbsrLZ6/2HqtIL5fIMEC4t3 UCR113DMjfXjYAjOs4WgMOACKMPvCkbwRqfNU4wEfGewYRaoiGJ3XEuOKQY07WouCmjdgnDj6kIXl C+ECxG3xpfBXbralaGUEwKo+Uc8jfgACG5YmtZWHIu3Qb4NkOPVpT68NZF8PX29fR22Kh0SE5vvPO IrI4yqeWFb7p8mmJAPa59w==; Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 12:17:48 +0300 Message-Id: <86sey5vsn7.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnHo=myA1yJ84tSq1kiosxzP9zU_2FuOiaFkkN4JjahRA@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Sun, 26 May 2024 05:02:01 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnHo=myA1yJ84tSq1kiosxzP9zU_2FuOiaFkkN4JjahRA@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> > Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 05:02:01 -0400 > Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > I'm not sure even that is a good idea for Emacs 30. > > > > Let's see what others think. > > Is there any drawback to adding a warning? A nuisance, obviously, for something that was valid code for eons. > It seems like it would help Emacs package developers, not all of > which track master. I'd be happier if we waited with this till Emacs 31. This will let people more time to see the change and react to it, if they want.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[80.217.1.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 38308e7fff4ca-2e95bf26002sm7045441fa.136.2024.05.25.06.01.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 25 May 2024 06:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <86a5keyvf0.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 15:01:46 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <D5C3AE94-04A2-48FE-8267-15E07B16AC2E@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <jwva5l4qgnp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4F94AAEB-3D72-4B90-868E-F1D8369E4A59@HIDDEN> <jwv5xvsotmy.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> <63EF9C09-16B7-4EFD-B7E9-2A9C2BB86CB3@HIDDEN> <jwvzfsrdl50.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <DA6F0F15-1E0B-4816-9A54-D8891D344155@HIDDEN> <86a5keyvf0.fsf@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 25 maj 2024 kl. 13.37 skrev Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>: > No, it's too late for such changes in Emacs 30. Please wait until the > emacs-30 release branch is cut. That's perfectly fine. We'll make the changes after the branch has been = created then.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2024 11:37:43 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 25 07:37:43 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42936 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sApiZ-0008WI-6n for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 May 2024 07:37:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33248) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sApiX-0008Vu-Ac for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 May 2024 07:37:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sApiJ-0004sM-2F; Sat, 25 May 2024 07:37:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=tJ9JpYn6nw0vZAtu1wtawh0a6+i2gEvGYtDn759PxFg=; b=N9bHfqgsObi9mL1zKkDj 0F2O6Bc1wygpbuJQcZV5w8mq1qtCehXMnCVEEcjlj4KgqrfJBHCCMkZkau7H0mbAr2ompfvqiAF85 8Kfm9DB/fSKH+VTkQ8x4OLKw3pMlCbdBjdlee7YM6+x/6ST4r24wb/3+Uoc4RRT1OmgZ3l1PJkX6Z DEpIzKSQXYmfY3WZ96XoQU3m5jE5lckE+VtkFDit0vidVJo5/mAezfT5+7c14irSIMGs+lk6XCZFm k0ZyH2GXLhRsxBwp95M3VsOZ14o7hR1B7HXOYkKTV4RzCSFP9J+mWwz9TRJO22mG9vy8CUitE6jqe JCMipZXIhu+dIw==; Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 14:37:23 +0300 Message-Id: <86a5keyvf0.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DA6F0F15-1E0B-4816-9A54-D8891D344155@HIDDEN> (message from Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Sat, 25 May 2024 13:24:06 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <jwva5l4qgnp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4F94AAEB-3D72-4B90-868E-F1D8369E4A59@HIDDEN> <jwv5xvsotmy.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> <63EF9C09-16B7-4EFD-B7E9-2A9C2BB86CB3@HIDDEN> <jwvzfsrdl50.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <DA6F0F15-1E0B-4816-9A54-D8891D344155@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 13:24:06 +0200 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, > 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > Regarding resizing `aset` calls, what about adding the proposed warnings to Emacs 30? They are not expected to be seen much, and it gives users ample time to change some old code that may remain. No, it's too late for such changes in Emacs 30. Please wait until the emacs-30 release branch is cut.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[80.217.1.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 38308e7fff4ca-2e95bdffdf0sm6420511fa.107.2024.05.25.04.24.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 25 May 2024 04:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvzfsrdl50.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 13:24:06 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <DA6F0F15-1E0B-4816-9A54-D8891D344155@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <jwva5l4qgnp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4F94AAEB-3D72-4B90-868E-F1D8369E4A59@HIDDEN> <jwv5xvsotmy.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> <63EF9C09-16B7-4EFD-B7E9-2A9C2BB86CB3@HIDDEN> <jwvzfsrdl50.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) `store-substring` now removed from the manual (nice to see it getting = smaller for a change). It should probably be marked obsolete as well -- any objections? Regarding resizing `aset` calls, what about adding the proposed warnings = to Emacs 30? They are not expected to be seen much, and it gives users = ample time to change some old code that may remain. In any case, we'll know soon enough (that's one good thing about = warnings).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[80.217.1.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 2adb3069b0e04-521f38d87c7sm2631540e87.198.2024.05.15.12.35.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 May 2024 12:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvzfsrdl50.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 21:35:00 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <CFDE693C-A24B-4734-9270-650DC78ABF21@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <jwva5l4qgnp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4F94AAEB-3D72-4B90-868E-F1D8369E4A59@HIDDEN> <jwv5xvsotmy.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> <63EF9C09-16B7-4EFD-B7E9-2A9C2BB86CB3@HIDDEN> <jwvzfsrdl50.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 15 maj 2024 kl. 19.47 skrev Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>: > AFAIK between Emacs, GNU ELPA, and NonGNU ELPA, I can see it used in = only > two files: >=20 > elpa/packages/elisp-benchmarks/benchmarks/dhrystone.el > elpa/packages/mmm-mode/mmm-cmds.el Yes, and both are frivolous: in mmm-mode it's for padding a table for = display (`format` would be natural), and in dhrystone, where do we even = begin...
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Mattias =?windows-1252?Q?Engdeg=E5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
In-Reply-To: <63EF9C09-16B7-4EFD-B7E9-2A9C2BB86CB3@HIDDEN> ("Mattias
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> Also, I'm leaning toward removing `store-substring` from the manual because
> while it probably felt like a good addition at the time, circumstances have
> changed and it has hardly seen any use at all. (We can mark it obsolete or
> keep it indefinitely but it doesn't really deserve top billing these days.)
Hmm... wasn't aware of this one.
AFAIK between Emacs, GNU ELPA, and NonGNU ELPA, I can see it used in only
two files:
elpa/packages/elisp-benchmarks/benchmarks/dhrystone.el
elpa/packages/mmm-mode/mmm-cmds.el
Deprecation sounds about right.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[80.217.1.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 38308e7fff4ca-2e4d16227a2sm21590461fa.120.2024.05.15.10.30.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 May 2024 10:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 19:30:43 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <63EF9C09-16B7-4EFD-B7E9-2A9C2BB86CB3@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <jwva5l4qgnp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4F94AAEB-3D72-4B90-868E-F1D8369E4A59@HIDDEN> <jwv5xvsotmy.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) To minimise even low-probability trouble, I've looked for standard Elisp = functions that might run into the resizing mutation trouble if used in a = specific way. There's not a lot, but so far I've done: - cl-substitute[-if[-not]] - cl-sort (not that sorting strings is very common) - subst-char-in-string with INPLACE =3D nil I'm going to leave functions that explicitly mutate strings alone since = code may depend on them doing that which is completely fine. The manual would benefit from some light editing, just to make it clear = that mutating multibyte strings is not usually the best programming = style. I'll post a suggested patch. Also, I'm leaning toward removing `store-substring` from the manual = because while it probably felt like a good addition at the time, = circumstances have changed and it has hardly seen any use at all. (We = can mark it obsolete or keep it indefinitely but it doesn't really = deserve top billing these days.)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Mattias =?windows-1252?Q?Engdeg=E5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
In-Reply-To: <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> ("Mattias
=?windows-1252?Q?Engdeg=E5rd=22's?= message of "Sat, 11 May 2024 17:20:32
+0200")
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>> Very nice. For track-changes, the backtraces aren't as important,
>> because we often detect the problem only after the fact so the backtrace
>> may be unrelated (which is why I also record the recent keys).
> Right, recent keys are probably less important for `aset`. I doubt the
> proposed warning would trigger very often but if it does, it should given
> ample information to the user.
Agreed.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[80.217.1.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 2adb3069b0e04-521f35ad3c7sm1029342e87.35.2024.05.11.08.20.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 May 2024 08:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwv5xvsotmy.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 17:20:32 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5F2B7A18-84C1-4C3D-85DB-49A901B5EB79@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <jwva5l4qgnp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4F94AAEB-3D72-4B90-868E-F1D8369E4A59@HIDDEN> <jwv5xvsotmy.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 5 maj 2024 kl. 23.14 skrev Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>: > Very nice. For track-changes, the backtraces aren't as important, > because we often detect the problem only after the fact so the = backtrace > may be unrelated (which is why I also record the recent keys). Right, recent keys are probably less important for `aset`. I doubt the = proposed warning would trigger very often but if it does, it should = given ample information to the user.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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Thu, 9 May 2024 01:14:21 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "rms@HIDDEN" <rms@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing Thread-Index: AQHaoZ8CsdRlz+j5bEuIdTRvgzqpFLGOFk1g Date: Thu, 9 May 2024 01:14:21 +0000 Message-ID: <SJ0PR10MB54889E951DCCB603F7B6C216F3E62@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1s4qeh-00036c-7t@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1s4qeh-00036c-7t@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|CH0PR10MB5033:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1f55c039-57fc-4a1b-b546-08dc6fc55b84 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2024 23:26:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 08 19:26:10 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51509 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s4qfq-0004hD-BW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:26:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40526) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qfo-0004h7-CF for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:26:09 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qfI-0005ng-OI; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=dM6pDlW/jXCJ6YLafmK/GiCkTm2UXATUPnJEVecU8/M=; b=o+mKjbpm3S1q 3OA5kKVWkCYsA9qZL07UP+55RInyoqiSFGwtcw9HA3PDnEtNSGvo24w1Wg94c8LlEtWZEQwIy6Kdz OgW0CKX9mHXZOpZV4rWinwTxe0c37rmMDaHy+JKveQlIDCLwlFkWjY3UdjCF1Ols2MXZjFbUu9jpm MESjppKZ6tNPaXQr4mkadbAIx0Mtx1Ori0v0ihGqBFILe3ckV+ACSAYfg2eiElAeidq0AD8bsclZn Xo3Fnh3vZu/T2Cn2IzzXdbeQ0GsZJrNjKr3DoujoP/HSKkWpcMTZ7ZXHpx0iQa3Xy9CCsh2gZPBVH yver1JnGYoGIlqMSvvyMFA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qek-000391-NK; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:03 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Gerd =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <m25xvrxyu1.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Gerd =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= on Mon, 06 May 2024 08:02:14 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB5488551E0EB82CEF2EC4D58EF31D2@HIDDEN> <868r0ocei4.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54880668D9C3316FB9200628F31D2@HIDDEN> <s54msp3ah43.fsf@HIDDEN> <m25xvrxyu1.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1s4qek-000391-NK@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > First of all, I'd like to ask why this feature/these features are not > discussed on emacs-devel but here? I find that strange. We should always move discussions of feature changes to emacs-devel! -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2024 23:25:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 08 19:25:37 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51500 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s4qfI-0004gQ-Te for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34984) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qfF-0004g8-4U for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:35 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qek-0005WN-3e; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=Nb8xP/wFTEoGG/YPaTeMItwpyfkv4Fn4KZKX1ghG/r8=; b=lVDDx/m+NrOD PZ1GEf5wbH+LUOsm6Rwzm2Y/VlbUlKBg+0H2YtWUscsBAui52ckEIz7l+2EgYUe3aDgj5t94jPiFx NHExzNiFKvPWnt0AYDdoIdYXGIdVPMWLj/VrK6jOt5JYxHnB2G8P5/pJsczrKJElVu0okz1chRwFB 2bQtInrSNj6CpqC8oPAHgZgc9i5PZsD/aFEuFod415/8xe0vjdwzhAPzNrLdZkdjOfa1QZqQgyRiA FlUpBbaizB8N0+G14NIEJQpvoXpnJmPs8+QZOrNdXtVyxpC0FpEZxUgutjbnaj3l5Tw4IebB1YOZr vqAJI8Ht6ramkEjmKh4weA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qei-00037J-Qv; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:01 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1s4qei-00037J-Qv@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:00 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Emacs Lisp is not a hot-rod where crucial, fundamental facilities are > dispensable in the face of a performance improvement That is valid. There are various reasons why it is useful to be able to relocate the contents of strings. Changing the size of a string is just one of them. Even if we adopt MPS GC now, that doesn't imply we will never again change to some other GC. We have replaced GC in the past. Maybe in the future we will once again want to relocate string contents. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2024 23:25:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 08 19:25:36 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51498 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s4qfI-0004gN-Go for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34970) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qfE-0004g7-1j for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:34 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qei-0005Vp-Iy; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:25:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=3o9oESCznnr8VFYE2p4ixH0+7FuHMp6947/u9BsrKQs=; b=o4MwECTi24vr EOT/rT9Yoa84KWWLA2oOjxm6uVFKp/18U7LDk2Xz5bk6/0UcXBqMAtL+ptvHqC1mH++OxfwB7eNdg kF/NOtTy1l/0XH2CUdUEFhsHX8/TqkBsy64DG1eduxx7FGWh2l86Y15M0UF+1p/itKb1trOYevCbP LGlIy5QQpJ3XpR22yquT36iUwebd6WtkBJAOai1a8u8fMk+8eta6uTKtkrs/sjj9zmAmIWiu6Jog1 ttH84jREpaqVP9Y/De6T9/CFE+qXYFdf7uuYpFwRyGUj6OZ33O8NXxsXwzb47zPYr5G6hqWiHnbnL +0Cbs6+zhC37LQQTooGDVg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1s4qeh-00036c-7t; Wed, 08 May 2024 19:24:59 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: drew.adams@HIDDEN In-Reply-To: <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sun, 05 May 2024 20:10:41 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1s4qeh-00036c-7t@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 19:24:59 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Next on Matthias's immutable list of "improvements": > doing away with mutable lists. Drew, Eli is right. Any views we want to state can be expressed without sarcasm. Please do it that way. Another thing to avoid is assuming someone will next propose some further step. > Without sarcasm: From Mattias in bug 70155 thread: > Of course if you ask me, I'd prefer it if lists > were guaranteed to be proper, immutable, with > the empty list an object distinct from the symbol > nil and the false boolean value. Maybe next year. Those words explicitly highlight the fact that he was _not_ proposing this. > Proposing that Elisp lists be only _proper_ (never > dotted) and _immutable_ is a _radical_ departure > from Lisp. That is true. But he does not proposed we make this change, so please don't criticize him as if he did. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
In-Reply-To: <868r0lc1t1.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 07 May
2024 14:13:30 +0300")
References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN>
<s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN>
<SJ0PR10MB54881F455F8C4BD8B8FF1A41F31C2@HIDDEN>
<86v83rb2bl.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ttjb3yzy.fsf@HIDDEN>
<868r0lc1t1.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 21:41:10 +0800
Message-ID: <874jb94u4p.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> What _would_ matter is if there are important use cases out there
> where replacing one character by another character of a different
> multibyte length. So if you, or anyone else, can come up with such
> situations (which are not made up specifically to argue here), please
> do, because knowing about such situations would be useful to make this
> discussion serious and based on facts.
There is certainly plenty of Emacs code that needs to replace characters
within strings whose contents are more or less arbitrary, so that
whether Mattias's proposal will disrupt them will vary in an
unpredictable manner from one string to the next. I would venture to
suggest that _every_ invocation of aset with multibyte strings will
potentially be disrupted by the proposal in its mildest form, and it
will only be a matter of time before problems surface. A wildly
variable length of time, for that matter, so it is infeasible to
anticipate their impact ahead of time, at least with the accuracy that
such a change deserves.
Nevertheless, examples are legion and one need search no further than
one's own init files for them:
(progn
[...]
(if allow_unicode
(progn
(aset string pac-quote-start ?=E2=80=9C)
(aset string (1- pac-quote-close) ?=E2=80=9D)
)
(progn
;; Sometimes [...] prints unicode quotation marks
;; surrounding pac captions so prevent inserting them into
;; source code comments.
(aset string pac-quote-start ?\")
(aset string (1- pac-quote-close) ?\")
)
)
[...]
)
string is process output from shell-command-to-string, generated by a
Perl script I cannot publish. Please don't ask for details as to the
script itself, since I am not at liberty to disclose them, and they have
absolutely no bearing on the matter at hand.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2024 11:20:59 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 07 07:20:59 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42561 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s4IsU-0000PX-7R for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 May 2024 07:20:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52238) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s4IsK-0000PL-CQ for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 May 2024 07:20:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s4Irn-0005Ng-Al; Tue, 07 May 2024 07:20:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=sd7NOE0h8oWPg+xiGMYxqE9GQ0NhAHmbTa5V584fu/E=; b=lo2iXdAIxHNk IiqqdoN8c4qQ/A7diGvopgbnPDGlulV6fkzJiB/OEOtC4f5xUBsQusebqvvrVpZhVfkd1I5dm2a7+ xjRBQ4S//AtnPWBf6VSrlK+PdNQXCHf4GbGMWG4aBYd2hwkkW4CZRJstp6cghuxubo4+88emoZqxG 0OLZ+I2n2nZI4jVAn5whk5mKwxV8njk6v3VyNgwEr0fxRZL1JJZFTANwWR4TpQU7AL8CA5h0yXdqf YHCcvzvjCDEo9fEQ3YjeJY0qyEa1zeK4A08oO1yb+wiwn+zwfYHyQz8EZPWxPldZ+f3xP/LP8h9eJ 5P4M9dDojed1ts8Vd8fMyw==; Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 14:19:40 +0300 Message-Id: <867cg5c1ir.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87y18n3z9n.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Po Lu on Mon, 06 May 2024 20:23:16 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> <86wmo7b2pz.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y18n3z9n.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> > Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:23:16 +0800 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > We are not going to abandon backward-compatibility considerations. > > But refusing to discuss significant changes just because they have > > compatibility issues is throwing the proverbial baby with the > > bathwater. Refusing changes is of course 110% backward-compatible, > > but it has many disadvantages, to say the least. Instead, we should > > see how to keep compatibility, to the extent that we consider it > > important, without blocking changes which could potentially help us > > adopting new technologies and improving performance. > > These principles are no doubt valid in general, but please consider what > is the feature whose continued existence is being called into question! > `(aset string n foo)' has been possible and countenanced for ages Which is why this is not the feature that was suggested to be abolished. Please leave strawmen and red herrings out of this discussion. No one in their right mind will agree to removal of 'aset' for strings in general. > the performance of strings has never been a source of user > complaint. You are very wrong. String performance in Emacs is a known problem, as evidenced by the fact that we recommend that Lisp programs use buffers in preference to strings. I'm not saying that going with this proposal will necessarily make the problem less severe, just that your over-reaching argument is patently incorrect. > Without such a plain justification and a clear strategy for evaluating > whether the results so produced meet expectations, there really is no > detriment in categorically dismissing proposals to alter them, until > such time, if ever, as these conditions are created. No one said that we will accept this change based on performance considerations without seeing some performance data.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2024 11:14:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 07 07:14:10 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42529 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s4Ilu-0000Km-0X for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 May 2024 07:14:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45004) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s4Ilq-0000KV-Sr for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 May 2024 07:14:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s4IlL-0003Pz-IG; Tue, 07 May 2024 07:13:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=ZCaNqRiQ16uXETXRey4RuPdnYXCw8SxfUl1gNgxsLY8=; b=JILHUOFINQCe 3FIo1yFUv44oxVScOl8haubSkyTVRlEFnLFMuG5L2DRT26D3nQNHzeVSHUxZlbVLFzleJZrE8doWh l8eNJWJnevd39HwWnH1y2kK9LPx/1swghH1lAE1ZvYsE6pggTAPcKi0IawO+UIuqK0eEhzMdhBKk4 xoQDnBP4S6wC/hUPCzVPXbd0g3Q0AZ19ijq1s8iBiMAhvrmONWwCsv3WXhXBmvd/hGg/S1dGvN0XU J59noO8iocbyMtWp5zuoqbyR117exWapMGhL5Sm4+2KTm05cqmkf2mh373yJc2ubt+NSRt7s/eu7A e5Qgsm9hBNzcVB9VRAB9BA==; Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 14:13:30 +0300 Message-Id: <868r0lc1t1.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87ttjb3yzy.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Po Lu on Mon, 06 May 2024 20:29:05 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54881F455F8C4BD8B8FF1A41F31C2@HIDDEN> <86v83rb2bl.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ttjb3yzy.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN, drew.adams@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> > Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, > 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:29:05 +0800 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > Which is why no one is proposing to make string immutable. This is > > not what this proposal is about, and Mattias made a point of saying > > that explicitly. > > The point is that CL string implementations are capable of modifying > strings in such a manner as Mattias proposes to "abolish". I presume > some are implemented as Emacs's are, while others simply use a > representation for multibyte strings where all characters are the same > wide size (which incidentally there's nothing preventing Emacs from > implementing). That doesn't really matter. "Other applications" do things that Emacs doesn't necessarily want to do, or vice versa. E.g., consider our support for raw bytes in multibyte strings, which is quite unique. What _would_ matter is if there are important use cases out there where replacing one character by another character of a different multibyte length. So if you, or anyone else, can come up with such situations (which are not made up specifically to argue here), please do, because knowing about such situations would be useful to make this discussion serious and based on facts.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 2c0db7f4ff1b4034029f6548163e3edf; Mon, 06 May 2024 12:29:25 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing In-Reply-To: <86v83rb2bl.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 06 May 2024 14:35:26 +0300") References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54881F455F8C4BD8B8FF1A41F31C2@HIDDEN> <86v83rb2bl.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:29:05 +0800 Message-ID: <87ttjb3yzy.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22256 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 554 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Which is why no one is proposing to make string immutable. This is > not what this proposal is about, and Mattias made a point of saying > that explicitly. The point is that CL string implementations are capable of modifying strings in such a manner as Mattias proposes to "abolish". I presume some are implemented as Emacs's are, while others simply use a representation for multibyte strings where all characters are the same wide size (which incidentally there's nothing preventing Emacs from implementing).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 624cfab573f71c3ec08535d5914da65c; Mon, 06 May 2024 12:23:42 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing In-Reply-To: <86wmo7b2pz.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 06 May 2024 14:26:48 +0300") References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> <86wmo7b2pz.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 20:23:16 +0800 Message-ID: <87y18n3z9n.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22256 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1664 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > We are not going to abandon backward-compatibility considerations. > But refusing to discuss significant changes just because they have > compatibility issues is throwing the proverbial baby with the > bathwater. Refusing changes is of course 110% backward-compatible, > but it has many disadvantages, to say the least. Instead, we should > see how to keep compatibility, to the extent that we consider it > important, without blocking changes which could potentially help us > adopting new technologies and improving performance. These principles are no doubt valid in general, but please consider what is the feature whose continued existence is being called into question! `(aset string n foo)' has been possible and countenanced for ages, if not forever, and, I trust, such behavior of a quarter-century's standing is among the rudiments of a language that should not change without a very compelling and immediate reason. Theoretical or even demonstrable performance wins, or the hoary old commonplace of facilitating the adoption of new technologies, both to be found in the release notes of proprietary programs everywhere, provide no such reason, simply as the performance of strings has never been a source of user complaint. Without such a plain justification and a clear strategy for evaluating whether the results so produced meet expectations, there really is no detriment in categorically dismissing proposals to alter them, until such time, if ever, as these conditions are created. The quantity of user or package code that would be erratically broken is alone enough to send shivers down one's spine.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2024 11:36:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 06 07:36:14 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37478 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s3wdi-0002u5-Iw for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 May 2024 07:36:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:32946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3wdg-0002tl-Oy for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 May 2024 07:36:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3wd3-0005qD-N7; Mon, 06 May 2024 07:35:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=mDftKF6sB4D8AeSFO48cLw3pvavU3veEWy3hu4PU4V8=; b=EhC96RjtNYdZ JjlfK8SrMmsOh71XFaB3laboY5F5rCvlM7Ecu5FKyCClKHk3NIBQNjQM4ze8tM/qcHIaFRmcNot6e y8sW+a3iu4wMNx6Lx8fEOpWfUX6lre+oIDw6vRzhQBTUOWqHXj6uo20xAeN9aNDcsBUXPXJwYAJXi 4j8FOlC1NvVIoMwscNDA0qizWa2sZPkoHE1U1IQkzpIdg2tc4+o5p6sGk/1STVwdslKb9V/lpVCwh g27XZU2zT1PSoCc91bJyBcR93Rmlc/C3Wn3uBz7DVldpNjdoOLRuC8HyNfVo+mtkRPgRP8JfZr0Fw ozZ63sz4BGhpQLZSMvD2fg==; Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 14:35:26 +0300 Message-Id: <86v83rb2bl.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB54881F455F8C4BD8B8FF1A41F31C2@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54881F455F8C4BD8B8FF1A41F31C2@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: "70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, > Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 6 May 2024 01:56:27 +0000 > From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > Wrt mutable strings: Consider that Common Lisp, whose > implementations can be very performant, has always had > mutable strings. I'd even wager that no one ever argued > that its strings shouldn't be mutable. Inconceivable. Which is why no one is proposing to make string immutable. This is not what this proposal is about, and Mattias made a point of saying that explicitly. > On the other hand, Elisp strings can have text properties. > (Let's please not hear a proposal to remove that feature > as well, in the name of immutability or performance.) A strawman, if ever there was one.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2024 11:27:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 06 07:27:30 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37430 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s3wVF-0008Tu-Rd for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 May 2024 07:27:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48980) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3wVB-0008Tn-IX for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 May 2024 07:27:28 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3wUf-0003jE-QN; Mon, 06 May 2024 07:26:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=V+SRNr3sWQcozKUVlJMPX+XdIPpMFXuahIy0VjnqLuI=; b=fura5iI45Jkr xL3T8Mk5y60/70RPkhXMa1yoKB/9I9SZeKqHb+rfWP/sYSvhdnnJXCIYQm0LOz7LoGo5PkhwDpciF EoiiZAlJU9B0nlo3w3kkNt2CysNaFGD/D7D1+XS2TLlUhx+y4XTJdIF645iSY2ava5/WP3SvYohrZ FoRFsVjm/8LgBa4W+D3xhj+hiEUJOp7cbANsXhz0yu0Uq6R9DSxrnQbztNSECxa6vZLBNNGsJdAdZ pt16IoWACbKFhMS1Ox9cDCxLI1aYjzzer+Q6hkkaeSk6O1n3w70+sWFGU04+F9bZUDnSpmn79gL0v EUHD9hUhR2HruWXJkO3aDg==; Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 14:26:48 +0300 Message-Id: <86wmo7b2pz.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 08:53:17 +0800 > From: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > Is it only I who am tired of these proposals for complete upheavals > that, somehow, Emacs has fared just fine without, for generations past? If we "get tired" of hearing such proposals, how can we ensure any significant progress in Emacs, which is a major contributor to its viability for years to come? It's okay to discuss such proposals and object to some or all of them, provided you have good reasons for the objections, but suggestions to block such proposals up front are counter-productive and will eventually hamper Emacs's future, IMNSHO. > It's precisely this attitude that begins to inspire thoughts of > departure. Backwards-compatibility is an obligation that cannot be > evaded by means of warnings, which instead serve to annoy and antagonize > users, whose only wish is that Emacs leave them in peace. We are not going to abandon backward-compatibility considerations. But refusing to discuss significant changes just because they have compatibility issues is throwing the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Refusing changes is of course 110% backward-compatible, but it has many disadvantages, to say the least. Instead, we should see how to keep compatibility, to the extent that we consider it important, without blocking changes which could potentially help us adopting new technologies and improving performance.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2024 10:58:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 06 06:58:10 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37251 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s3w2r-00087j-Ry for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 May 2024 06:58:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42382) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3w2o-00087K-Db for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 May 2024 06:58:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3w2K-0000dg-0d; Mon, 06 May 2024 06:57:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=KMsFrnj3FBCAPW51w09lsLvBfBARZXB2YBiQ/W1qUyY=; b=a/2Ck4Pvh7+BGFeF6E1r kUq6kH/LAqJpXGeavzzJrtI3xBrrBMJPCUL2WifRB3hV44HIFNRrhKctIRmtIy9SsVh4rxD4r+61K e2yHiM8A0Xm3shUxG7ZqxcY8l3XW2ao67ASssrWjNlZ+3wdq+w1qCXZDzplL202b1ZdUP4+D4EEMS 4H63BKUCc976XcMtruFsFeKOIBZLO2q+aRXh2SNrP07sfpJ+m/26DCMAP/raR/q1wuc72AZ+k9uxl zVDrN19uQIAvn3ivCJ8O9MQM6I1jUjx6lJwrbx45t1+/hyE+4m68ZpCYvTeZRMlz6GgUUzt1lBJE7 DRiSZXveHQ7ZnA==; Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 13:57:28 +0300 Message-Id: <865xvrcinb.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwv34qv65a7.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv34qv65a7.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: Mattias Engdegård <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>, > 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 22:41:54 -0400 > From: Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > >> The Elisp ability to resize strings is high-cost, low-benefit, so we > >> should abolish it. > > What is the improvement to be had by "abolishing" this immemorial > > feature? > > Actually, it's not "immemorial", it's just old: > > commit 3c9de1afcde82a99137721436c822059cce79b5b > Author: Kenichi Handa <handa@HIDDEN> > Date: Fri Jul 21 06:45:30 2000 +0000 > > (Faset): Allow storing any multibyte character in a string. Convert > unibyte string to multibyte if necessary. > > IOW, since Emacs-21.1. That's only half of the story, AFAIR. The other half is that Emacs before version 20 allowed aset with any string anywhere, because characters back then were always unibyte. We lost that with introduction of MULE, and the above change by Kenichi restored the lost functionality (which was evidently deemed important enough back then).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[79.227.165.94]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z3-20020a056402274300b00572accd13dasm4800685edd.80.2024.05.05.23.02.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 05 May 2024 23:02:15 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing In-Reply-To: <s54msp3ah43.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu via's message of "Mon, 06 May 2024 09:01:16 +0800") References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB5488551E0EB82CEF2EC4D58EF31D2@HIDDEN> <868r0ocei4.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54880668D9C3316FB9200628F31D2@HIDDEN> <s54msp3ah43.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 08:02:14 +0200 Message-ID: <m25xvrxyu1.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: "mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN" <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>, Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, "70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes: > >> No, I didn't - you did. I said nothing about >> any enemies of Lisp, nor did I suggest that >> anyone here is an enemy of Lisp. >> >> Please stop with the hyperbole and insinuation. >> You appear to be trying to spin my position >> into something it's not. >> >> It would be a mistake, IMHO, to do away with >> mutable strings or lists in Elisp. That's my >> opinion: that would _impoverish Lisp_. The >> former (make strings immutable) is exactly the >> question raised in this thread, IIUC. >> >> It would also be unfortunate to do away with >> the use of nil as meaning false, or as the >> empty list. Again, that would _impoverish >> Lisp_. That's my opinion. >> >> Such suggestions don't jibe with Lisp; they >> would, in effect mutate Lisp away from its >> fundament. Let's not go down that road. > > I agree, but alas, the dubious practice of removing time-honored > facilities for their supposed disuse, virtually on impulse, and giving > Emacs a new motto inspired by line 6186 of dispnew.c, is much in vogue > with Mattias these days. I had to look that up: it's bitch_at_user. Yeah, some arrogance is part of being young, I guess :-). > One can only hope that calmer heads will prevail. First of all, I'd like to ask why this feature/these features are not discussed on emacs-devel but here? I find that strange. Wrt to this particular feature of aref, I wonder if XEmacs wasn't right having a character type. That would be an interesting change. The change in aref or strings doesn't interest me much. The immutabile list thing and so on. To each his own, live and let live, and so on, but this direction is not mine. And this all should be on emacs-devel, but I said that already.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[79.227.165.94]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z3-20020a056402274300b00572accd13dasm4800685edd.80.2024.05.05.23.02.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 05 May 2024 23:02:15 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing In-Reply-To: <s54msp3ah43.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu via's message of "Mon, 06 May 2024 09:01:16 +0800") References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB5488551E0EB82CEF2EC4D58EF31D2@HIDDEN> <868r0ocei4.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54880668D9C3316FB9200628F31D2@HIDDEN> <s54msp3ah43.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 08:02:14 +0200 Message-ID: <m25xvrxyu1.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::22c; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN; helo=mail-lj1-x22c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: "mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN" <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>, Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, "70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes: > >> No, I didn't - you did. I said nothing about >> any enemies of Lisp, nor did I suggest that >> anyone here is an enemy of Lisp. >> >> Please stop with the hyperbole and insinuation. >> You appear to be trying to spin my position >> into something it's not. >> >> It would be a mistake, IMHO, to do away with >> mutable strings or lists in Elisp. That's my >> opinion: that would _impoverish Lisp_. The >> former (make strings immutable) is exactly the >> question raised in this thread, IIUC. >> >> It would also be unfortunate to do away with >> the use of nil as meaning false, or as the >> empty list. Again, that would _impoverish >> Lisp_. That's my opinion. >> >> Such suggestions don't jibe with Lisp; they >> would, in effect mutate Lisp away from its >> fundament. Let's not go down that road. > > I agree, but alas, the dubious practice of removing time-honored > facilities for their supposed disuse, virtually on impulse, and giving > Emacs a new motto inspired by line 6186 of dispnew.c, is much in vogue > with Mattias these days. I had to look that up: it's bitch_at_user. Yeah, some arrogance is part of being young, I guess :-). > One can only hope that calmer heads will prevail. First of all, I'd like to ask why this feature/these features are not discussed on emacs-devel but here? I find that strange. Wrt to this particular feature of aref, I wonder if XEmacs wasn't right having a character type. That would be an interesting change. The change in aref or strings doesn't interest me much. The immutabile list thing and so on. To each his own, live and let live, and so on, but this direction is not mine. And this all should be on emacs-devel, but I said that already.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3e5d024cca5a816e396338a93c357270; Mon, 06 May 2024 04:42:16 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing In-Reply-To: <jwv34qv65a7.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 05 May 2024 22:41:54 -0400") References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv34qv65a7.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 12:41:59 +0800 Message-ID: <87fruv5z6w.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22256 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1791 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > Actually, it's not "immemorial", it's just old: > > commit 3c9de1afcde82a99137721436c822059cce79b5b > Author: Kenichi Handa <handa@HIDDEN> > Date: Fri Jul 21 06:45:30 2000 +0000 That's _23_, approaching 24 years, in the past, or 1 generation exactly. To put this into perspective, a mere 2 years and 7 months after the introduction of multibyte strings. > > (Faset): Allow storing any multibyte character in a string. Convert > unibyte string to multibyte if necessary. > > IOW, since Emacs-21.1. Only two releases after the distinction between multibyte and unibyte strings was introduced. Evidently, this departure from traditional array behavior was seen as a misdesign at the time, and we should know better than to second-guess old design decisions, especially those from a past when computer memory and performance were far scarcer commodities than today. > As for improvements, like a lot of refactoring and maintenance work, > there isn't any immediate benefit. But it's a "feature" which is *very* > rarely used (thank god: it makes a notionally constant time operation > take time proportional to the size of the string, so if it were used > often we would have heard complaints about the poor performance) and > which imposes pretty significant implementation constraints, so it's > definitely detrimental to long term evolution. Placing quotation marks around the word "feature" does not make it any less of a feature, and if reports of performance woes be the judge of whether a feature is sufficiently disused to justify removal, then, why, virtually all (vastly underreported) sub-optimal code in Emacs would be eligible for immediate deletion attended by irritating pop-up warnings.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
In-Reply-To: <s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu's message of "Mon, 06 May 2024
08:53:17 +0800")
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References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN>
<s54ttjbahhe.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 22:41:54 -0400
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>> The Elisp ability to resize strings is high-cost, low-benefit, so we
>> should abolish it.
> What is the improvement to be had by "abolishing" this immemorial
> feature?
Actually, it's not "immemorial", it's just old:
commit 3c9de1afcde82a99137721436c822059cce79b5b
Author: Kenichi Handa <handa@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri Jul 21 06:45:30 2000 +0000
(Faset): Allow storing any multibyte character in a string. Convert
unibyte string to multibyte if necessary.
IOW, since Emacs-21.1.
As for improvements, like a lot of refactoring and maintenance work,
there isn't any immediate benefit. But it's a "feature" which is *very*
rarely used (thank god: it makes a notionally constant time operation
take time proportional to the size of the string, so if it were used
often we would have heard complaints about the poor performance) and
which imposes pretty significant implementation constraints, so it's
definitely detrimental to long term evolution.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 2211204869e9d1837a86a32a7174ad74; Mon, 06 May 2024 01:01:20 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB54880668D9C3316FB9200628F31D2@HIDDEN> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 5 May 2024 20:08:56 +0000") References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB5488551E0EB82CEF2EC4D58EF31D2@HIDDEN> <868r0ocei4.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54880668D9C3316FB9200628F31D2@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 09:01:16 +0800 Message-ID: <s54msp3ah43.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22256 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1118 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, "70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, "mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN" <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes: > No, I didn't - you did. I said nothing about > any enemies of Lisp, nor did I suggest that > anyone here is an enemy of Lisp. > > Please stop with the hyperbole and insinuation. > You appear to be trying to spin my position > into something it's not. > > It would be a mistake, IMHO, to do away with > mutable strings or lists in Elisp. That's my > opinion: that would _impoverish Lisp_. The > former (make strings immutable) is exactly the > question raised in this thread, IIUC. > > It would also be unfortunate to do away with > the use of nil as meaning false, or as the > empty list. Again, that would _impoverish > Lisp_. That's my opinion. > > Such suggestions don't jibe with Lisp; they > would, in effect mutate Lisp away from its > fundament. Let's not go down that road. I agree, but alas, the dubious practice of removing time-honored facilities for their supposed disuse, virtually on impulse, and giving Emacs a new motto inspired by line 6186 of dispnew.c, is much in vogue with Mattias these days. One can only hope that calmer heads will prevail.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
In-Reply-To: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> ("Mattias
=?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd=22's?= message of "Sun, 5 May 2024 14:33:51
+0200")
References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 06 May 2024 08:53:17 +0800
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Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> writes:
> The Elisp ability to resize strings is high-cost, low-benefit, so we
> should abolish it.
What is the improvement to be had by "abolishing" this immemorial
feature?
If it's a notional increase in Lisp evaluation performance, please stop.
Emacs Lisp is not a hot-rod where crucial, fundamental facilities are
dispensable in the face of a performance improvement (which is anything
but a certainly at this early stage) of a few percent or similarly
marginal value on contrived benchmarks testing scenarios unlikely to be
encountered in real Lisp code.
MPS is no justification for degrading the capabilities of the existing
GC, if for no other reason than its being inoperable on systems beyond
the limited selection whose support its developers consider a priority,
and the increase in memory consumption it brings (e.g. it will never
function on Android 13, because the C library's sigaction wrapper is
insufficient to enable MPS and JVM trap handlers to coexist). What's
more, memory consumption is an aspect that should not be sacrificed for
minor gains in performance, with a program that is designed to be a good
citizen on systems old and new.
Is it only I who am tired of these proposals for complete upheavals
that, somehow, Emacs has fared just fine without, for generations past?
It's precisely this attitude that begins to inspire thoughts of
departure. Backwards-compatibility is an obligation that cannot be
evaded by means of warnings, which instead serve to annoy and antagonize
users, whose only wish is that Emacs leave them in peace.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Mattias =?windows-1252?Q?Engdeg=E5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
In-Reply-To: <4F94AAEB-3D72-4B90-868E-F1D8369E4A59@HIDDEN> ("Mattias
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> Thanks, I hadn't seen your work. My approach (attached) is more an instance
> of outsider art: I didn't know how these things are normally done and just
> made it up as I went.
Mine was also "invent it as I go along", ...
> The backtrace is included in the message here because it's kind of essential
> for diagnosing the warning correctly, and it uses the very compact form
> repurposed from the profiler for brevity and because we probably don't need
> more to establish the source of the problem.
Very nice. For track-changes, the backtraces aren't as important,
because we often detect the problem only after the fact so the backtrace
may be unrelated (which is why I also record the recent keys).
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 22:24:42 +0200
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5 maj 2024 kl. 20.09 skrev Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:
> If the warning is too annoying, we could do like I did there, i.e. =
only
> emit the warning when running in a non-release Emacs (i.e. when
> `emacs-version` has 2 dots), and offer a variable to control whether =
to
> emit the warning or not.
Thanks, I hadn't seen your work. My approach (attached) is more an =
instance of outsider art: I didn't know how these things are normally =
done and just made it up as I went.
The backtrace is included in the message here because it's kind of =
essential for diagnosing the warning correctly, and it uses the very =
compact form repurposed from the profiler for brevity and because we =
probably don't need more to establish the source of the problem. Your =
idea to stuff stack traces in a variable for later scrutiny is probably =
more robust.
(Prefer raising actual errors though -- some people will inevitably =
suppress the warning to avoid fixing the code.)
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diff --git a/src/data.c b/src/data.c
index ea611ad1abf..a3fba48c7f2 100644
--- a/src/data.c
+++ b/src/data.c
@@ -2570,6 +2570,33 @@ DEFUN ("aref", Faref, Saref, 2, 2, 0,
}
}
+static void
+warn_aset_string_resize (Lisp_Object string, const char *msg, unsigned ch)
+{
+ /* Only warn the first few times to avoid spamming the user. */
+ static int remaining = 5;
+ if (remaining <= 0)
+ return;
+ --remaining;
+
+ Lisp_Object bt[16];
+ get_backtrace (bt, ARRAYELTS (bt));
+ Lisp_Object warning
+ = CALLN (Fformat,
+ build_string ("`aset' on %s string: %s;"
+ " this will become an error in Emacs 31."
+ " Call chain (most recent first):"),
+ build_string (STRING_MULTIBYTE (string) ? "multibyte" : "unibyte"),
+ CALLN (Fformat, build_string (msg), make_int (ch)));
+
+ for (ptrdiff_t i = EQ (bt[0], Qaset) ? 1 : 0;
+ i < ARRAYELTS (bt) && !NILP (bt[i]); i++)
+ if (SYMBOLP (bt[i]))
+ warning = CALLN (Fformat, build_string ("%s %s;"), warning, bt[i]);
+ Vdelayed_warnings_list = Fcons (list2 (Qaset, warning),
+ Vdelayed_warnings_list);
+}
+
DEFUN ("aset", Faset, Saset, 3, 3, 0,
doc: /* Store into the element of ARRAY at index IDX the value NEWELT.
Return NEWELT. ARRAY may be a vector, a string, a char-table or a
@@ -2623,6 +2650,12 @@ DEFUN ("aset", Faset, Saset, 3, 3, 0,
{
idxval_byte = string_char_to_byte (array, idxval);
p1 = SDATA (array) + idxval_byte;
+ if (c > 127)
+ warn_aset_string_resize (array,
+ "replacement char #x%x is non-ASCII", c);
+ else if (*p1 > 127)
+ warn_aset_string_resize (array,
+ "replaced char #x%x is non-ASCII", *p1);
prev_bytes = BYTES_BY_CHAR_HEAD (*p1);
}
else if (SINGLE_BYTE_CHAR_P (c))
@@ -2632,6 +2665,9 @@ DEFUN ("aset", Faset, Saset, 3, 3, 0,
}
else
{
+ warn_aset_string_resize (array,
+ "replacement char #x%x is not single-byte",
+ c);
for (ptrdiff_t i = SBYTES (array) - 1; i >= 0; i--)
if (!ASCII_CHAR_P (SREF (array, i)))
args_out_of_range (array, newelt);
--Apple-Mail=_F243CC61-6F4E-4E36-A924-E59FFE12E1DF--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
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> > > > > I'm not sure even that is a good idea for
> > > > > Emacs 30. Let's see what others think.
> > > >
> > > > Next on Matthias's immutable list of
> > > > "improvements": doing away with mutable lists.
> > > > Poor Lisp.
> > >
> > > Your opinions might be more important to
> > > read and consider if you drop the sarcasm.
> > > There are no enemies of Lisp here.
> >
> > No one (except you) spoke of "enemies" of Lisp.
>=20
> You did ("poor Lisp" etc.).
No, I didn't - you did. I said nothing about
any enemies of Lisp, nor did I suggest that
anyone here is an enemy of Lisp.
Please stop with the hyperbole and insinuation.
You appear to be trying to spin my position
into something it's not.
It would be a mistake, IMHO, to do away with
mutable strings or lists in Elisp. That's my
opinion: that would _impoverish Lisp_. The
former (make strings immutable) is exactly the
question raised in this thread, IIUC.
It would also be unfortunate to do away with
the use of nil as meaning false, or as the
empty list. Again, that would _impoverish
Lisp_. That's my opinion.
Such suggestions don't jibe with Lisp; they
would, in effect mutate Lisp away from its
fundament. Let's not go down that road.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 21:14:43 +0300
Message-Id: <868r0ocei4.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB5488551E0EB82CEF2EC4D58EF31D2@HIDDEN>
(message from Drew Adams on Sun, 5 May 2024 18:09:38 +0000)
Subject: Re: [External] : bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN>
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> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
> CC: "mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN" <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>,
> "70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
> "monnier@HIDDEN"
> <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 18:09:38 +0000
>
> > > > I'm not sure even that is a good idea for
> > > > Emacs 30. Let's see what others think.
> > >
> > > Next on Matthias's immutable list of
> > > "improvements": doing away with mutable lists.
> > > Poor Lisp.
> >
> > Your opinions might be more important to
> > read and consider if you drop the sarcasm.
> > There are no enemies of Lisp here.
>
> No one (except you) spoke of "enemies" of Lisp.
You did ("poor Lisp" etc.).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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Sun, 5 May 2024 18:09:38 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#70784: Abolish string resizing Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#70784: Abolish string resizing Thread-Index: AQHanw80Vo9BfA1Lg0y7Xd46QJzgTLGI45Dg Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 18:09:38 +0000 Message-ID: <SJ0PR10MB5488551E0EB82CEF2EC4D58EF31D2@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|CYXPR10MB7949:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6decf740-85d4-442a-e9c0-08dc6d2e8725 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; ARA:13230031|1800799015|376005|366007|38070700009; 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Let's see what others think. > > > > Next on Matthias's immutable list of > > "improvements": doing away with mutable lists. > > Poor Lisp. >=20 > Your opinions might be more important to > read and consider if you drop the sarcasm. > There are no enemies of Lisp here. No one (except you) spoke of "enemies" of Lisp. Without sarcasm: From Mattias in bug 70155 thread: Of course if you ask me, I'd prefer it if lists were guaranteed to be proper, immutable, with the empty list an object distinct from the symbol nil and the false boolean value. Maybe next year. Was _that_ sarcasm, or was it straightforward? I took it at face value. And coincidentally we now see this string "enhancement" suggestion, along the same line from the same friend. My response to this line is "poor Lisp" (or "poor Elisp") - without sarcasm. And nothing personal. OK, yes, Scheme is in the Lisp family, and its nil is only the empty list, not also false. (I'd say "poor Lisp" there too, but not as strongly.) And Clojure is often considered to be in the Lisp family, and it uses immutable data more, including lists. Elisp is more related to Common Lisp. And mutable lists and dotted lists are _fundamental_ for this part of the family (and for Scheme as well). Nothing says "Lisp" more than its cons. Proposing that Elisp lists be only _proper_ (never dotted) and _immutable_ is a _radical_ departure from Lisp. I don't take that proposal as coming from any "enemy of Lisp". I don't see any enemies here (do you?). I'm not in favor of such a proposal; that's all. Likewise for the current proposal, to make strings immutable (abolish string resizing). That one wasn't even on the "Maybe next year" list. It's apparently on the this-year list. Just one opinion.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Mattias =?windows-1252?Q?Engdeg=E5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing
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> That's fine, but a warning might help in emacs-30 to prepare for making
> resizing an error in emacs-31.
> Here's how that would work: the first 5 times (say), emit a warning like
>
> Warning: `aset' on a multibyte string with char value #x2022 will become an error in Emacs 31
>
> followed by a truncated stack trace, just enough to help the user (or
> someone helping out) see what package is responsible.
Similar to what I do in `track-changes.el` when we detect a missing
call to `after/before-change-functions`? I like that.
If the warning is too annoying, we could do like I did there, i.e. only
emit the warning when running in a non-release Emacs (i.e. when
`emacs-version` has 2 dots), and offer a variable to control whether to
emit the warning or not.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2024 17:11:20 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 05 13:11:20 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60769 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s3fOS-0001tP-44 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2024 13:11:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59288) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3fOO-0001tJ-IL for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2024 13:11:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3fNu-0003Kv-I2; Sun, 05 May 2024 13:10:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=lDQbENQCBiNvuUS8uyS4uKcuppy5HtTSWMVJJoa0q4c=; b=ReNiWplhrang 82O05S0EVH0iyaM0vkcXI3MQI4UgaMegeJqVXxw/No7/I9e3AzLz5a6b3ZeG2Oc/lh/vkL3yS1ZXF tc/frhDpKzVwkmbBdJfQEADD945u2KUpZiDekzUjQ8acPf1r1aR0gNwAvVflAGtEVw5JCst2uZLbX ypNdA0vHoRNK9qDcOJKzxQcjJCVliSCa9J0ZpFWlTSTb9DupfyJKNldmEhS1dtBX+k62IaCj6FCA/ BNbztbPTZCorkEfUHpBZsImMEGrCQXBGJXb1am8iUfcLRQ3tcR5mCM5hIgV7BwS4kifr3dUS8UxnY 4CSyL077Zyl09sW7gOiqJA==; Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 20:10:41 +0300 Message-Id: <86ikzschgu.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 5 May 2024 16:55:43 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB54886B11937870732418DC56F31D2@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN, 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, > "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN> > Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 16:55:43 +0000 > > > I'm not sure even that is a good idea for Emacs 30. > > Let's see what others think. > > Next on Matthias's immutable list of "improvements": > doing away with mutable lists. > > Poor Lisp. Your opinions might be more important to read and consider if you drop the sarcasm. There are no enemies of Lisp here.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2024 15:24:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 05 11:24:29 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60264 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s3dj3-0000lw-9M for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2024 11:24:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40066) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3dj0-0000lo-Cf for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2024 11:24:28 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3diV-0000Di-Vx; Sun, 05 May 2024 11:23:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=RMnrlUE+HEhbGkv8lxVfbR7I+V13XA7WO7gums4+/WU=; b=IZ3aOiUQK7yAMT/Scbgc LXhOv93zO3fJn0skDKt+nB7V10vZA4TEuRSZbuZ5R4JA5Eg2iBc/PYKn/1UPU5azcxOOo3XAGPURO RPrXilVDzBX58cUJjU1ieRkUyt1j2BuhfZVzSCfFPgNUjmM5eFTd0awJz0GDZSg+tkQb9tqv+Xa8J WCyqUMDyn1ueGhQy7plzvh8j27IeR6CpxxJe7WEwFp5tFjuX615b53RUCsAJI6TQbWuC4zzkKeP4N jCTZDdZUWLWDs1K7VbtiWBlspGE6izF4ixCTAYYLDrN/LPAx8Db8kTfdB0nOhQfHuqOFRLhmtNltF 5AjoAt0FNW2xig==; Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 18:23:49 +0300 Message-Id: <86v83scmey.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> (message from Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Sun, 5 May 2024 16:18:16 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> > Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 16:18:16 +0200 > Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > monnier@HIDDEN > > 5 maj 2024 kl. 16.04 skrev Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>: > > > How many places in our own sources call aset on strings? > > In general, very little. Resizing ones, probably none now. > > > I'm not yet sure this is a good idea, but one thing I'm sure: it is > > not for Emacs 30. So if we decide to go this way, let's delay > > merging the changes until after the emacs-30 branch is cut, which > > should happen in a week or two. > > That's fine, but a warning might help in emacs-30 to prepare for making resizing an error in emacs-31. > Here's how that would work: the first 5 times (say), emit a warning like > > Warning: `aset' on a multibyte string with char value #x2022 will become an error in Emacs 31 > > followed by a truncated stack trace, just enough to help the user (or someone helping out) see what package is responsible. I'm not sure even that is a good idea for Emacs 30. Let's see what others think.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[80.217.1.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a12-20020ac2504c000000b00517626d22d2sm1234011lfm.83.2024.05.05.07.18.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 May 2024 07:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 16:18:16 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@HIDDEN> References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 5 maj 2024 kl. 16.04 skrev Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>: > How many places in our own sources call aset on strings? In general, very little. Resizing ones, probably none now. > I'm not yet sure this is a good idea, but one thing I'm sure: it is > not for Emacs 30. So if we decide to go this way, let's delay > merging the changes until after the emacs-30 branch is cut, which > should happen in a week or two. That's fine, but a warning might help in emacs-30 to prepare for making = resizing an error in emacs-31. Here's how that would work: the first 5 times (say), emit a warning like Warning: `aset' on a multibyte string with char value #x2022 will = become an error in Emacs 31 followed by a truncated stack trace, just enough to help the user (or = someone helping out) see what package is responsible.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70784) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2024 14:04:57 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 05 10:04:57 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59925 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1s3cU5-0008OO-8E for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2024 10:04:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40440) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3cU0-0008OI-C7 for 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2024 10:04:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1s3cTW-0007f8-TM; Sun, 05 May 2024 10:04:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=cDjlEvlwJWolUWNOX9ificErY2dCwreBUIx4t7Th3zY=; b=WtoO3oAQI9s4CGw6IVhM Usvsm4tvms17ATzvLZmoih8ELOEZoK3EfJcb4cgNf40Wt1oOAey6Ssd897Zwyluw516DFGAvue/dh IEZVcM9ERsCehZUr0P/8XVY6x67LGR8MO2K0crHF0Ue2mUPVg0BnGmGzUpA8ILO9wHLEuWfXHBh60 EQdbkr+zbSUQnqZDbzs8VsaJ0E0SiWxfUUbvw2Z+ws9XPvP28YIPqa/mquQJOrAWbXvPFDdsuDGZJ FqWsWX/YG6WhhgFQo8UBGgLgNoSrlcHlX42SxqfznP4rAMU2ind8Dp1woWwtwrn1Rt/+43XKrKoLs d4LVBVjMO/IIsw==; Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 17:04:18 +0300 Message-Id: <864jbce4nx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> (message from Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Sun, 5 May 2024 14:33:51 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing References: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70784 Cc: 70784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > From: Mattias Engdegård <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> > Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 14:33:51 +0200 > > The Elisp ability to resize strings is high-cost, low-benefit, so we should abolish it. > > Strings are performance-critical, and the split allocation (fixed-size metadata + variable-size data) and its indirections are not free. This is one reason why strings are comparatively expensive in Elisp compared to other languages. > > With MPS there is even no use for the special-purpose string data defragger in the current GC. > > String resizing occurs in exactly one place: `aset` on strings, and then only when the mutation alters the string size, in either of two cases: > > * When a unibyte string byte is set to a non-byte value (> 255), which also forces the string to become multibyte. > * When a multibyte string char is set to a char of different length. > > String mutation itself is very rare these days, and resizing string mutation exceptionally so. > > Best and simplest would be to just turn resizing `aset` on strings into an error now. As an alternative, we could start warning about it now and make it an error in the next release. The (trivial) patches exist. How many places in our own sources call aset on strings? > > Note that this is not a proposal for abolishing string mutation in general. For example, `clear-string` would still work on any string, as would arbitrary closed mutations on unibyte strings and on ASCII multibyte strings. I'm not yet sure this is a good idea, but one thing I'm sure: it is not for Emacs 30. So if we decide to go this way, let's delay merging the changes until after the emacs-30 branch is cut, which should happen in a week or two. Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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[80.217.1.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a26-20020ac2505a000000b0051f01398fe9sm1211001lfm.304.2024.05.05.05.33.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 May 2024 05:33:52 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Subject: Abolish string resizing Message-Id: <A24C4B77-291E-4F7B-AD43-ADB42FAFA3C6@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 14:33:51 +0200 To: Emacs Bug Report <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12f; envelope-from=mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN; helo=mail-lf1-x12f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) The Elisp ability to resize strings is high-cost, low-benefit, so we = should abolish it. Strings are performance-critical, and the split allocation (fixed-size = metadata + variable-size data) and its indirections are not free. This = is one reason why strings are comparatively expensive in Elisp compared = to other languages. With MPS there is even no use for the special-purpose string data = defragger in the current GC. String resizing occurs in exactly one place: `aset` on strings, and then = only when the mutation alters the string size, in either of two cases: * When a unibyte string byte is set to a non-byte value (> 255), which = also forces the string to become multibyte. * When a multibyte string char is set to a char of different length. String mutation itself is very rare these days, and resizing string = mutation exceptionally so. Best and simplest would be to just turn resizing `aset` on strings into = an error now. As an alternative, we could start warning about it now and = make it an error in the next release. The (trivial) patches exist. Note that this is not a proposal for abolishing string mutation in = general. For example, `clear-string` would still work on any string, as = would arbitrary closed mutations on unibyte strings and on ASCII = multibyte strings.
Mattias Engdegård <mattias.engdegard@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70784; Package emacs.
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