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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a
generalized variable
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Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2025 18:43:00 -0500
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Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>,
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>,
Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>
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> Let's better please wait for Stefan. I'm sure that what he has is
> already much much better than the simplistic setter we have. I hope he
> continues. And if he doesn't, we still would have to go on with his
> approach.
I'm not sure how to continue because it mostly depends on what Stefan
and Eli (and Andrea) can agree to do. At this point I don't really
understand what Eli wants. Nobody replied to may last message from
a week and a half ago, in that bug#76313.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Mar 2025 08:32:01 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 03 03:32:01 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44303 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tp1DV-0002yX-2L for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Mar 2025 03:32:01 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:33587) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1tp1DR-0002xi-Np for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Mar 2025 03:31:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1740990694; x=1741595494; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=YW6Pc0EdkQGSeB4kEYds4+z8ucgxdJzCMFBQk9muHIY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=vCAL70okcsKbcqoqx9DssMwgKqU2604mQJRBR25jqr9+lqMAGa68V1vGKflgmPJS ljKivLFmzXlF9guD3eZghKLcq2325vYYCngJ9Yn7rjNIdKr5BdIEyoZZqRxggNMzd vMZraKZJvl4ea+QG75HJ9wIrKbnPGNN0ZxU3dj39fshjOrkwqrukc4fA5IW3Itqh7 SSnx39zkQCWg0ayNT67PPweadTbGpAGXt/DTj3uIpXfGCahBEzalvpsDlAgW9DqeS ZD74CKWFlD9L6FKeHd1CYIOduBNFqYXCIFuC3RjZbegQPZ5v9i/embJI4PIpw5b2M 5GI38IJ3MXd/+MgSIQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.232]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Md6y1-1tGEgn0D5P-00b9h8; Mon, 03 Mar 2025 09:31:34 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkdREk78JCFF4MoD83kr3a9PJYf-zT1vndANRPFJ=iXtQ@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmsqUBVgs2auDkB2mWNakuLNK465m8EKOceWd_B5JKyLw@HIDDEN> <87y0y2dzlg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvo6yyugpt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnPt4qHQxo85Qk1wFiQwOZxLWRQegGHDQ9C1-yV1T3QPA@HIDDEN> <875xkssslx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdREk78JCFF4MoD83kr3a9PJYf-zT1vndANRPFJ=iXtQ@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2025 09:32:57 +0100 Message-ID: <87r03e7buu.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:WAEVG4TsBi4kMzhAdWlzqQmb4QMlkxVhBD63xVJ17afTf2Y+bym vkbV48hzpntnidvvD+kPUu4qFXy6MaNKkhnKrAwOj57rEJ/0lHGPIUHQ6Y4Ot4L8F7OxY1x Ni+AGmri7WWZaxu2L0QlwgDjYQISqURV3bBFBWr/cV9qFKAb5rt1w8F7DH8DkwLJ90B5qCl be5i6sR4JzbeEahiCrl2A== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:41JPve/IHaU=;DsFuSC15DxyqQd/ieQrkFsRuOS2 SvNC2pWflBkyBUudnDgfb47tJPCDZQi/8OapOO52jLZZxDCGyIlLVJPjp7ZZilis08Ii6fQXh biy/vbtG1uHfONOfNOASSTdtPO6PJvBgA8LW1KnaQDpvkJXlrZiEXRZhCI4XcSqNYDNpwP/02 ux+SmejjfvXegIx7mnN4KX+xxUq/ak2FK31LC6dZIh1oAyktc67t18fSTfg/+q0mx5KhFEnV0 Se4wne2hLsihHK85J6znhaARzVdx8436AgBTXAWW8VqjT7bPd9CojQX/68jB3AaADd+kCVvcC S3qm2jE0bPPdoTG0D+2QqAMqEY51TxHbMSOQ6MCo58R2a619pHV/LzYEVgQFvmpB/yuEfpQWd 4P7zfRdvGRKWgTwaG3055WrZHCb4HzdDVoxceV+jVzepVW+1xeG9t7SHXTQ5J0yjJlnGnpwyv RH1CkvoOv2ejKlJtMpw1M3atxUfsllBfGXaW9uMWfJ7Ox85sQP48GOp862NbshRBvxcw01D3U myHypmwfLTKufxoo2Mplsgt5Ro+xOBYnb+w7nsCCFindnkua+hux9rffBHUudRXbRgeJOg3pJ BLqpfEN568t759owwPQQQ2w1YACKsuf3HV/BUUO8BAUNyZpHw9E9z1Czf8+7cP3/nw8aHurMe hR+08zvMfX89JMgvPe6oU83OarjMYsWFSeEXuS5/FaVePTew+FjYw7gIxE9FGb2jr3ilv2+/L trUsFhlAzM/VS0wjx2BvrUsLnTgzlbDNpVAWjYvh6afc9SPFOTezkJlhL+mq4MYCHtNDU/fMf 6LyTYf+5avxclVWyc2gMnOIdzLVIGG6+0mfdNYw16NUyuw1PL73rusC0Z9iZTnaqbyUHexv3R DcO03rvvYAwpt8QB5xm8ueJLcCV1Hj551z8PJJwsM74cxZ1I7cUSZA8QnH/H3z4f5azwh0hdX h8feH7YtOUh+5zHY0+ylnf/vh73wo0Vv5QEV2QIJ5EruaKME9EYqY2O5iABGURXlAkqB3lML7 k4sc1d6cun6KwHCom4Bire715e3K2Mc4GZr5dQE5b0D7OY3uRx0UQKlpKfgZ2j+SvqZY0lydd y+jTNaZnuGlviP2KBxSF+tWmIDHq/SHzw1saBulPmUBT5luU4HtVigvJFzDmfZ+B76H8xTIQZ gbQRm27PtjbHpfKCsu1Kq//jhLDtpy/mZ54p8vXrpts700MQ3JgZbbRprRE1gzdBBD+Hq5RD7 x/JpuJtKrkHpA27oLwDlF3wHXg1dWGIubhvp4AxAxKRQRkI8aszUABL7brtpy1EPMMGdsJa8k g4jdJnE4s+f/ChBI+Z4vRUvf3KYLoelRHPbmNBlmUZJHJvvgbjTto726cq1/71uAhnkoW/qEV 3mg7jsEn6r/xKWSZuQ2HkfFsDnPvgDXIXeQM51u24NWPXmd3cJbTDqBDMr X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > As for `buffer-substring`, if we can't have a function that provides > that functionality (the proposed `replace-region`), then (setf > (buffer-substring ...) ...) is clearly _not_ obsolete and shouldn't be > marked as such. This is a problem, yes (note we at least have `replace-region-contents' in subr-x.el, though it's not exactly the same). > FWIW, I don't see a huge need for a replacement function, and I think > a generalized variable is perfectly serviceable in that case. I don't, it's absolutely not, in my opinion. This point had been discussed somewhere above in this thread. Short summary of my position: the semantics of a generalized variable here is undefined, too unclear, because there are already several, fundamentally different ways to fulfill the contract "the place expression evals to the assigned value after setting it": replacing text, inserting text and move what was there after the inserted text, etc. It is unclear what happens to markers, overlays etc etc. And all the difficulties that were hindering Stefan to finish his version come on top - we just didn't discuss them _here_. `buffer-substring' was one of the worst generalized variables that had been obsoleted. The documentation doesn't tell anything about how the setter behaves. It's simply not existent. Really bad, actually, please don't get blinded by the lack of documentation and discussion. Let's better please wait for Stefan. I'm sure that what he has is already much much better than the simplistic setter we have. I hope he continues. And if he doesn't, we still would have to go on with his approach. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a
generalized variable
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Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes:
> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> If not, I think what Sean writes above is the way to go.
>
> What about what I said and Sean agreed to? Did you read my replies?
Yes, if you mean this part:
Please let's keep those two separate questions separate: (1) is a
certain functionality useful, and (2) if it is, should it be provided,
maybe even only, as a gv setter function.
As for `buffer-substring`, if we can't have a function that provides
that functionality (the proposed `replace-region`), then (setf
(buffer-substring ...) ...) is clearly _not_ obsolete and shouldn't be
marked as such.
As for `buffer-string`, I don't know any proposed replacement function,
so I think it's not obsolete on these grounds too. FWIW, I don't see a
huge need for a replacement function, and I think a generalized variable
is perfectly serviceable in that case.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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b=Br3jjEhp1lkyKUPIrAqDMUPs7cjabwtVQDC10UFmVBbAUiaDq7JMPIiGSt5aBclT dEbqaKfDT1fGw4QZ2MCLbwLVQAc3JHUjd48dMApcanNSaL9xz55Ou0y4cgqdzHSD1 edcFoBVkuVmsgL9o9Qn5ERiJhSZiOlIPkM7RTUjE+3LAKWsfYL6c9NcIUgQqORp2C yl5LhJvDgE3f+kgvoxInRnBEH3I7xFnr1EQyQM1t2x32lxFYHiyRz6yxf3sH3Tzq4 wuEARga5S1sjPfj/PziUJr0SAakuW4m91pwdKVMX5oszbTabEPKUyhPzuJmzeS4PE wvMsk2IszKWENKYt1w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.232]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MsrhK-1t00aN3rnk-00zqeB; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 15:59:36 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnPt4qHQxo85Qk1wFiQwOZxLWRQegGHDQ9C1-yV1T3QPA@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmsqUBVgs2auDkB2mWNakuLNK465m8EKOceWd_B5JKyLw@HIDDEN> <87y0y2dzlg.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvo6yyugpt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnPt4qHQxo85Qk1wFiQwOZxLWRQegGHDQ9C1-yV1T3QPA@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2025 16:00:58 +0100 Message-ID: <875xkssslx.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eu5cjTySC7rhlqaJ+IV/UGNWVHntDmr2uONY8poGenuOvjGkMIY qrWA90JWDEnDaPWBz6LZ9rVUTz1rrfL+dx90ZTUZRr52uhxx9DHKqERRnaKuK7fnhiBaTKM Q+DUP51LZU9oyGdCeM7K38bA1CDv0eDGsqU7OHJpiGmZEtQu/hziaoM1RSevmNSz++Yf8/y 07e5DJURVxcgjuLq1pe7g== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:tWMWIkwy+M0=;fQHlkHEvJwkc4Ho4xgjPrFaYJ04 Hjt/4A0juB3W7OCeHL1FKOgwBMH8JoyTctP5nxgdZ6MnX904z/n+uY8eLmnIpRUZlYcKYeqYw MLkQWfLsEeguT34GNidf1LgbRlDvK2leutKldQscO4Jh9acjIwbljnwY4tYagRDWzS4OYILBd 3RXqcJkNYJviwgQdtcmEcwQ0UpmrNkTmLUQbNAANYzcQYfbMEoJJ0dtgEbrai2E29PYbJo62/ 4GNcTS64imkFmoxwGVPRQ07P7jT9A/Wql5MOc6+3iHxjB018Y0IF/vUgJhndnNnFJzI1BeQWt spptv473UcgSxEwGjDtbTJdsHLNCEJAGNy2HrrY7+7q/6L2pKruZrMZwYHa4gF3FicRtgsx42 l+6vuuAsyEvBe/SzImUP6/ZguaRO/hASuHfy93CMZOXYsC4fVaRyJulFrYE7qgpjwXJ6d8tU7 cbIVNJ1WAHSOaeVlkCXpINfWUZdQFWQAV33BWUsiXehdc7A7p4ZNU1q2kqRn1TUZ4eq1JZsFy QcCgd42n85V0WBl/vGTZAq2FiowzZOZ8vQmLe0GZxfCmM4lNm7/ESw6rmRvF4M90+1qLIX2hO NOVZldAoWTm5Q2bSBtlNnHBq9U96KtnP3TuOeATXS4QeddUah4ZaxPw7aSuJpbVkPOgq42g2W g2XBSlk7pgI6vttQZfpiYZnz3W3l9ddCBmOR7ir3UQGemJurKk//eiEFoBkcN5rHvYh8JSTDz SiBZDbKS2YfvT4iYpP1bsruylORi2VCnKPpbMqaYRncqOQYH8VlwhkzR4/t2URhxPRlrTnoqa KrtzFVgRVZLVapIZu6RyBPk0TLsEF8V+CJeIRXZkzfam6nzdjIzRps2LuEKgGQvVPW6giAIUq lS7RCHozWMpWEU1QAp5Ceq4d8JgGHZrd5ewwypa9eKsd0s/Xcf6YbFqNM4USK5XH16Y4AHFMm 9qwGR2RFtCODwcutsUcSnUR6byq6e9nJDdFREVjE7uHt53ZHfNcbdqgaEEI8RfF3WY/ufooxf qnvD1WLRcv4L9PUntsFyS7ocXhFvRsAaoJjEE74ntGu9rC365CljQOTZ5G85EcnZ5+ANDtlYt kBpbXdVxXvY/ldnoOLVWIgTLQzmDCpfpTXuY2YTZ7D0sNlgxX8YGdcKcvP+T1yMhVQOQ2Puya 5kjGto9y0ml/wtHTnALAJpeFvjT4ix6hnRwCoU7YipSvqA+uq4s9XgmMPDqYyc8B1rWyxUWNq RlkngcU+ba0bf+BaR9pY5gq3TCZpWjlgJowXklOMDQaM9DGD2gsZaUOYRA1bTKnYpup+gx7hc KEQnlxAk+rQYi5jV2s5GvMDEXagDHy5J0UvXT2ithS4rviyf7HSjq76Zbb9r2uHQ6LWpuT5uF 9yvh61wx4NsinYAmJgNYY2EekP3JhUD1UlmtJKXCR/2770NEYtG+enjypb X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > If not, I think what Sean writes above is the way to go. What about what I said and Sean agreed to? Did you read my replies? Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> I would propose that we should keep anything where there isn't a simple >> set-* function to take its place. >> So at least buffer-string and buffer-substring, and possibly more. > > For `buffer-substring`, there was a proposal to introduce a setter > function (`replace-region`, see bug#76313), but it got bogged down in > the bikeshed. Is there any hope of resurrecting it? If not, I think what Sean writes above is the way to go.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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b=tQVlfRhFZwqxI9vwUtI9WhICr3tiHGvggI0D34lFLOYAL+jMLaT3SkbVMZmhFnKL wsSZhAHViQdzAomRlFNE/9s3dkvCd5D4MslexL5hq84XbvTMi9dUFHJ+5BT52oAiw ESsBHpkeiurP7kwa3bOWpKoaKwjlU/CLYpVWVl9D1xRzKz0zvw8ogek0OeEfph66f UGEr/dJc2GCnrH0CQ0DRuE6N1UfaaiQK6AruiesREp+VWGNt1SqvdXKa90Ak1y+pU UHoWaCgOsu43tBUrP60wRMjVNx+Fm8Aigqa3ec5bm53mOfXBKKiknDZgpRqD5bZZE JFqoaq8tR3cDwziZvw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.232]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MBB3s-1tchkc4650-00ASBv; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 03:11:05 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <87y0y2dzlg.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmsqUBVgs2auDkB2mWNakuLNK465m8EKOceWd_B5JKyLw@HIDDEN> <87y0y2dzlg.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 03:12:25 +0100 Message-ID: <87seo9l5yu.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Uz0ZGYCCU1qNXyfsA2W+0YG3HvS+q/DXSpkHJhYMKbAreJVumuC Ac1grDEaYH3RKOUFn+513HjOPdOYMG1mOk21PjRoyChJHXVvCu7EHPJMF3EEfpe6V3q96BB SNfxk/78NFvLlNCEDSHKTuL73pDG+oL5idlYK+LdWQj9d0exr20OAYNvICBVaW6fnHBN4cY mlDQgsghuxnTUF/61PZMA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:dteNSe4B968=;Fqj8liasCdOCe4dOrGGiTKbVI7L r2IpSPmLWXTnylEA4vpRSFqPLnzrtir0nt3ADNyv2nMQ/QMt6Zmqje6HK6qGGBASlGLIda5FB hx5xUxu3LYlSFP7pP+n6Q3JpCVx3dWrLxHm5RK1V+CEFd7wegFnkx88kJe9pFFS87yWvsefWP n4xl7k9kUeu+wVRLdp1+7VyD+RrnnGAq2va3qMy60cDhITtYD88q+twjZ/OtE5WbHUdelWEI5 AOqKhVcqENxWRJn6xuqthYtAVdpRfOqMwnVjTA+zkX/8nZWNv8pSg14R1IELkpdFXUA/IOKwY PkiHekNg6VKlQD+tGQXHdTgsweRi2LUhOw3RU8w2aJ/twteOTIrYfP8I3i/EQKDqCBDp03ugu fh2pYziqck8nE2zIojQdYkeB517MOdik5986Ut8giCogLLC/iRVz1mTpp3lIYvoLG4TV1OeaC 2xHF5/b34SVSBjY7zTLOht+eRcitSpP7kW63dIYg9HaxLPBWCERWzCxCFp0jQUK1rBRsHR5cj KHiENUOS4O2Ln0raZSHSb4RIMNpMrrHP6H2UpmrBfSdpDfcAQKJ2KMHluRP6d/ke8RFfx3+aB TJ4B7FOzQocQQVCz4fWJfdx4OyqZZdaWZLZ8wyiUgRcJi4zaKgrBODJt5jBK/g318zItQfgFF Yq06XKtnQlZ9Qilcb+ZvsukRyxAr/jMgnd6EVeyU38/PHEVO9q16sJ7YSHO3XJR+4ktc4YazJ DiNZ5KAehyQHtpRGIpB0KRdQB1vbaAjg8VCbsnaD4S3JYSCIFsik+1//NbCkFgKsVvZbkNd4C MLnxlhRtu4XGEbl25+aGc/8h3Ulq664Nxv2NiL0E4TG1+7qYQ8g6vGYVhwU/xAXOTwYL01HQK BIxled07RSklh2/PYMx/2z8BaTZTJ55hVyVcfv5PDkrlJaMDaCqlV56GOPV5FSgXpKMv1R8F9 6bI/vtNpz3Upu+w1cijETxjNVX4XmxbhgtavUtzM6GCQrA9MWfzJSUPeqDIkx1dXiZhRqCDY1 +V6AuXEkfMJzOVL8cJ56gKJxuAZxpDucSnnUFRmElwd7YbzeIlckgQK4f2BAgH/rEGXtJ1SbR 8JhiQiKBNgJLxVhwjYQsSSoR+f24MIWHvZsO9JGFWMsvawVtpte2sa4I3uUuDnfitYA96itPw +Y02whCOGymo2D+cXT2CE5cAzqndX1wNt45rp5fl4MXzl0f2vBEMsTUak0iIKf3KhkVPh3eU2 I2nnMUPgFIhM5gHo8NtZRaNTYBTTZVXTVJmVd5TUy88f4fo8mbw2YLymdlBryzB7WlSWYtG5x bIfM6yySpC7yYQaGBIEyaGOM4gutLGdNAcAP1x/8ytliv1AabiFRkQCIR/ylEvoXDuEZYqv0b FJCLleZf6uKW+Ggp0C2pTONpsMuh8eazVuKpiRohDzBX6IVqUB2dYxUfdi X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: > I would propose that we should keep anything where there isn't a simple > set-* function to take its place. > So at least buffer-string and buffer-substring, and possibly more. Please let's keep those two separate questions separate: (1) is a certain functionality useful, and (2) if it is, should it be provided, maybe even only, as a gv setter function. And of course the current `setf'ability of `buffer-substring' is not falling from the sky. It is implemented in a quite primitive internal function named `cl--set-buffer-substring', four lines long. That those implementations are internal functions doesn't mean we can't keep those setter obsoleted. We can provide replacements. Sorry for speaking out something trivially obvious, but I had the impression that this aspect has been overlooked by some. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a
generalized variable
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Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>,
Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>,
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>,
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> I would propose that we should keep anything where there isn't a simple
> set-* function to take its place.
> So at least buffer-string and buffer-substring, and possibly more.
For `buffer-substring`, there was a proposal to introduce a setter
function (`replace-region`, see bug#76313), but it got bogged down in
the bikeshed.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2025 09:59:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 19 04:59:54 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42766 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tkgry-0001Kw-14 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2025 04:59:54 -0500 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:35418) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1tkgru-0001Jk-T0 for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2025 04:59:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=bZy28LZPmEwYcLT3ja8xLO9Ol9Ea4bRh9Zjv9U7FDr+YOlhQcbfsNcyHV0PoyKdus0vi/0JdFcz+UrQJJfpEYpkaTw5WtVaIKIIdcyh4wIPwVO5smBiwCL8Pwvso9FSGAyvQP30J7a5ugNf1n/NARMRXm4++7BEcX33ASkBurZYGss05gWcKo0yVMkq58qpWp9fP9etg+d8iHt8BwIEUm5jzVwADoctujREoDWEft/BVysApOXP/tEkd0SPFXRsSIjHJS6ZPbcZCCnTk2zM/TvO15di92Z3nL1IyhuEgNe9LdPv50X5wkt1yasja88wm/1VgWrLkLLUtb30BzSpByA==; s=purelymail1; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=7PHlESNlJpW5UdtTFv+6HRGV8BVWrzesLDQkT4o/oIk=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=YzZM9Vpv++S6La8A+gfh2lXuCGPeC2cJQXxWIbp8V7MDzU22ienvKjn/SbWhRernfHQyNwVwuGdDtKkRrBsC0+yRufasTdWeS1By4ERZ0KOuni29n2XrKLk7ghe9TSybnJAEGk+UEybA3Tvo7RlqaB0+B1OxpH9m/S5T6jlgMyKKN8LfD9FbzuHdGZgkP5PuqLXK5zPu5LxaJtUkAxOp4z21BZWvYx72gCIfWZsvnb4s8KRZx9NS9Qo0FgdETv8yZz2XJs9Bve9nEMHXdBjAe+sWqqelPWlECOIjpeD9BXKLNzoyo9N1uj854V+belc2Up6uBUTq9qVcSxPRJoR4Pg==; s=purelymail1; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=7PHlESNlJpW5UdtTFv+6HRGV8BVWrzesLDQkT4o/oIk=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id 1418926277; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Wed, 19 Feb 2025 09:59:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0D5217EAE8A; Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:59:39 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmsqUBVgs2auDkB2mWNakuLNK465m8EKOceWd_B5JKyLw@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Mon, 17 Feb 2025 18:54:30 +0000") References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmsqUBVgs2auDkB2mWNakuLNK465m8EKOceWd_B5JKyLw@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:59:39 +0800 Message-ID: <87y0y2dzlg.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Mon 17 Feb 2025 at 06:54pm GMT, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Testing like this: > > (setf (buffer-name) "test") > (setf (buffer-string) "foo") > (setf (buffer-substring 0 3) "hello") > (setf (current-buffer) "somebuffer") > (setf (frame-height) 20) > > I get these warnings: > > Warning: =E2=80=98buffer-name=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized variab= le; use > =E2=80=98rename-buffer=E2=80=99 instead. > Warning: =E2=80=98buffer-string=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized vari= able. > Warning: =E2=80=98current-buffer=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized var= iable; use > =E2=80=98set-buffer=E2=80=99 instead. > Warning: =E2=80=98frame-height=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized varia= ble; use > =E2=80=98set-frame-height=E2=80=99 instead. > Warning: =E2=80=98buffer-substring=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized v= ariable. > > So only `buffer-string' and `buffer-substring' seem to lack alternative > functions that could be used instead. I would propose that we should keep anything where there isn't a simple set-* function to take its place. So at least buffer-string and buffer-substring, and possibly more. (I'm a bit biased here as I never understood deprecating any of these.) --=20 Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN>
<87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN>
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Message-ID: <CADwFkmmsqUBVgs2auDkB2mWNakuLNK465m8EKOceWd_B5JKyLw@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a
generalized variable
To: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>
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Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>,
Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>,
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> writes:
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife
>> of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
>>
>>> Any arguments why this gv is different from the others that had been
>>> deprecated?
>>
>> It is one of the commonly used gvs.
>> https://github.com/search?q=3D%22%28setf+%28buffer-substring%22&type=3Dc=
ode
>> gives 500+ hits (and it is not all forks of one or two popular packages)
>
> Interesting, I took the time to apply your methodology to all GV
> obsoleted by the same commit and this is the result:
>
> | GV | file occurrences |
> | | in github |
> |------------------------------+------------------|
> | buffer-file-name | 5 |
> | buffer-modified-p | 7 |
> | buffer-name | 48 |
> | buffer-string | 142 |
> | buffer-substring | 512 |
> | current-buffer | 234 |
> | current-column | 3 |
> | current-global-map | 0 |
> | current-input-mode | 0 |
> | current-local-map | 0 |
> | current-window-configuration | 0 |
> | default-file-modes | 0 |
> | current-window-configuration | 0 |
> | default-file-modes | 0 |
> | documentation-property | 8 |
> | frame-height | 38 |
> | frame-visible-p | 0 |
> | global-key-binding | 3 |
> | local-key-binding | 0 |
> | mark | 4 |
> | mark-marker | 0 |
> | marker-position | 16 |
> | mouse-position | 7 |
> | point | 32 |
> | point-marker | 0 |
> | point-max | 0 |
> | point-min | 40 |
> | read-mouse-position | 0 |
> | screen-height | 4 |
> | screen-width | 15 |
> | selected-window | 4 |
> | selected-screen | 0 |
> | selected-frame | 0 |
> | standard-case-table | 0 |
> | syntax-table | 0 |
> | visited-file-modtime | 0 |
> | window-height | 13 |
> | window-width | 9 |
> | x-get-secondary-selection | 0 |
>
> While some of them are rarely/not used some others looks quite popular.
> This is an indication that the popular ones are probably a good
> abstraction or they are just convenient.
>
> I don't know what would be the risk of un-obsoleting the popular ones
> now, but if is not possible I think we should consider doing it for the
> next release cycle.
Can we make a decision about this now?
The most popular ones seem to be these:
> | buffer-name | 48 |
> | buffer-string | 142 |
> | buffer-substring | 512 |
> | current-buffer | 234 |
> | frame-height | 38 |
Testing like this:
(setf (buffer-name) "test")
(setf (buffer-string) "foo")
(setf (buffer-substring 0 3) "hello")
(setf (current-buffer) "somebuffer")
(setf (frame-height) 20)
I get these warnings:
Warning: =E2=80=98buffer-name=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized variable=
; use
=E2=80=98rename-buffer=E2=80=99 instead.
Warning: =E2=80=98buffer-string=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized variab=
le.
Warning: =E2=80=98current-buffer=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized varia=
ble; use
=E2=80=98set-buffer=E2=80=99 instead.
Warning: =E2=80=98frame-height=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized variabl=
e; use
=E2=80=98set-frame-height=E2=80=99 instead.
Warning: =E2=80=98buffer-substring=E2=80=99 is an obsolete generalized var=
iable.
So only `buffer-string' and `buffer-substring' seem to lack alternative
functions that could be used instead.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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d=alphapapa.net; s=dreamhost; t=1719500980; bh=LVjAIRRGCJL7Nm5YxnMmsGxnGHyjssUNLy8nouQsYs4=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=g9S642eXBmtli/m+ERvtzJ+kx3iC8YBdNrMf/Y35+i5o94O2tw8nKC9w487SlC3UX kTqTqmiopbgjouWEkCFgYeGi32nWB0ZOgf3NfU563JtL3BJprh0RMyJLlmguS4Dib4 5+ZsbWER1B4fOvB9OBBmrzW85CTBSJXY/5o5UKTR8vhR0Mn9DsRWuVIRmTV4XkmdH2 L0L9fR0aooBHshLi0a5Thddaj5HRGZ/qM1vIeUPbLwWgFIfx4xJ56/PugUCD6R2dFN KvXFs+3il0J4U1h6yfCbWvSbcHJ/yQAZFW/wizr5odzpVOHqGQiQEGpi35gWGEPy4H sukjPRCrVyqiA== Message-ID: <1ea7303f-5e8f-4ff6-ab1a-5a97412c291b@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 10:09:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US From: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) Hi Michael, On 6/19/24 18:44, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> writes: > >> ┌──── >> │ (let ((inhibit-read-only t)) >> │ (setf (buffer-substring (oref (magit-current-section) start) >> │ (oref (magit-current-section) end)) >> │ "foobar\n")) >> └──── >> >> Otherwise, one would have to use `delete-region' and then `insert', >> which is more cumbersome and error-prone. > > I guess alternatively you could define a helper function and make that > `setf'able, like > > #+begin_src emacs-lisp > (defalias 'magit-buffer-substring #'buffer-substring) > (gv-define-simple-setter magit-buffer-substring > cl--set-buffer-substring) > #+end_src One could, but it would seem tedious and wasteful to have do that across tens or hundreds of Elisp packages that use this setter and have for years. The minor ambiguities you point out in one of your later messages are fair to note; however, they aren't new, and they don't appear to have discouraged use of this form in practice. On the contrary, the form appears to be widely useful and understood easily enough. Given that Emacs is full of idiosyncrasies which are much more impactful and challenging to understand, I'd think that it would be sufficient to document this one in the Elisp manual, like others are. I'd certainly rather do that than deprive users of this useful, simple idiom which is already widely used. --Adam
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jun 2024 09:45:21 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 22 05:45:21 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44474 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sKxJB-0001no-19 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 05:45:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40314) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sKxJ8-0001nY-Ht for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 05:45:20 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sKxJ2-0001ED-D0; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 05:45:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=BZblaYfMhcHi1DcmxQkolcn7IWSsrv6rrbeJ1ZomSpg=; b=Bsd55+/QkYEl 7mPZm/FXsC38G3tK1ws1IULmHEest5C/SZ3IH23B8aGBy6G/TyvfwkxWSNbZnryNELlRE/thjnnLd G56ttebdemPqJx+a0SzqehWK9Ko+NYFSuusrHTG9hxS0tY8SM09TesfwjHSoPqVs/6kaqgPhKtXFC xQwR9cAPWmSF62vtLj+Py/Uoqa/LTz0bNlq0ypG9Jj2u7zLzAH0D8zNHhWIUHbtXZhFe5Y0OlwG9D xOtD4453i3Zg17ii7j8B57j3ptTIclvEj66W0PP/gx4yKiACKoWzfwhkah4xp1+PHqDw+Y2vGMGTu iRjK8hDCgSu6lSKz4ZQxWw==; Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 12:45:03 +0300 Message-Id: <86a5jdia5c.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87cyo9id71.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Sat, 22 Jun 2024 08:39:14 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed8pnc1w.fsf@HIDDEN> <874j9lo6ll.fsf@localhost> <86zfrdie9a.fsf@HIDDEN> <87cyo9id71.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN, adam@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> > Cc: michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN, adam@HIDDEN, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > acorallo@HIDDEN > Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 08:39:14 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > >> Do note that the original reason of obsoletion was different: > > ... > > Commit log messages are not a legal document, so treating them as if > > they were the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is not > > TRT. > > I am not saying that commit message is the full truth. > But I did not find any other relevant discussion about > `buffer-substring' on the mailing list. (And commit message did not > contain any reference to such discussion) > > So, I simply used information that was available to me to check > Michaels' claim. > > If you have a link to the discussion leading to obsolete of > `buffer-substring', feel free to share it. I respectfully suggest to consider this discussion as relevant evidence.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jun 2024 08:37:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 22 04:37:42 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44321 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sKwFi-0008PW-3z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:37:42 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:34157) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1sKwFf-0008PI-JW for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:37:40 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9D0D240103 for <71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 10:37:33 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1719045453; bh=sRfvTXaqC3E4iYw0/MQtSE5/+Pkvz9vpZ0Dwbs7Mbis=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type: From; b=dJxaIsYJdRmT9nIAJUC53+XYC5nIbg0lLjUxK7Gjt7NXrHMP1DH2Al5ZB3o/RQRgr TLacsi2n9/BmZw5+ZfFc+MEVhZK41saFnA2bvokeIGd0DFEf0tGwhNDmQy9FNWs/0U BYcKHMuYN4wCtkl+Pt1eE65Ekvyyw0Mypnus4703CyOadngK213Jb/oTGyr/7mT8BT 5NFWQ+NfxTxbLAo42nA3FH1/Doc6e1P3qBm7/9TF5baJbZiTkIb9kk9h6HrzWu+69G pRuj7T+Ccd05fjSDdj+dxKM1VHN2XmJS5JlJ6GVeGvgNTKlfKDFaMJCEJ55eS7z1Fl wmJHN2SmO/K3Q== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4W5nfM1fBwz9rxN; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 10:37:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <86zfrdie9a.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed8pnc1w.fsf@HIDDEN> <874j9lo6ll.fsf@localhost> <86zfrdie9a.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 08:39:14 +0000 Message-ID: <87cyo9id71.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN, adam@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> Do note that the original reason of obsoletion was different: > ... > Commit log messages are not a legal document, so treating them as if > they were the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is not > TRT. I am not saying that commit message is the full truth. But I did not find any other relevant discussion about `buffer-substring' on the mailing list. (And commit message did not contain any reference to such discussion) So, I simply used information that was available to me to check Michaels' claim. If you have a link to the discussion leading to obsolete of `buffer-substring', feel free to share it. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jun 2024 08:16:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 22 04:16:34 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44225 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sKvvG-0007n5-0g for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:16:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53100) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sKvvC-0007mi-46 for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:16:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sKvv4-0000XH-2Y; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:16:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=jPbKG9uw8grRUhLSXkWRk5WichMCmq69jNtDCzED8Rs=; b=PzlTNwpbjxk4 MB5V8kF86KAhI8XofTxMws1tEkRUI9EVrH28OnvIYAeHGwGbvYQHa5kh+818t7oyvj5OPRA/sj67W L3uGqHCuWbLTiQH6hTC4hr9QdvioU/Dg2GctYrVSdyL/dNCv6XgsICHBFgHxIAXwzjY8f4iIy7zK1 +YCtCr23daKzqAkKuWAj2LIuQ//EQ09uePOPdYG2OValDlkBWWzRQFg6SU7TDhFIEqKNSLsrTd6vz iVTeryowsYv9HESD30LXZ7iQG+9qox6d2IYgYmnbjN2OGeeXKuwWYZHI05a3skr07ByLPwuuHveN2 HGRAej/zKDkpSmq2s8+AyA==; Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 11:16:17 +0300 Message-Id: <86zfrdie9a.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <874j9lo6ll.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Sat, 22 Jun 2024 06:05:10 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed8pnc1w.fsf@HIDDEN> <874j9lo6ll.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN, adam@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> > From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 06:05:10 +0000 > > Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: > > > These were exactly the kind of problems why those place expressions had > > been obsoleted. > > Do note that the original reason of obsoletion was different: Commit log messages are not a legal document, so treating them as if they were the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is not TRT. (I'm guessing that Org commit log messages don't necessarily tell the whole story behind the changes, either, at least not in all cases.) While having some reason in the commit log message can be used as evidence that its author had that in mind, the absence of a reason can NOT and should not be used as evidence that it was NOT in the author's mind.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jun 2024 07:14:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 22 03:14:08 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44203 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sKuwq-0005vC-Hp for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 03:14:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36942) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sKuwl-0005uX-2s for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 03:14:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sKuwf-0007WF-5R; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 03:13:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=2fiquuc+pRAxn6RMopiPZ29C2tg/vuuCObIaZ3Yylwg=; b=C5hVahThPomx Ayq/sAgM/0W4aaB38vTaM/JocINvASLR0sKJXAvmq2NjgNdAybayOH2CUTkFB/vMcIQ8Bec39xwM5 5gG8m/p/ekTm3Kkmq0PYVeRi52tKd7o/wt3fB7MuM1opc0JSXwdNhV6hxSoDOLz8+bNl4reFjkodb PROSaUfni3rXA1Ltczm3QuGa6Fcz+KKUi6i808izZxtkQN5UXy9PbPpMv0vF5XOqwPmtoB/1FjDlr xunpeyQYK8BX0iZ8SfASz62xfj3FQswDpREbRy5TPpO71YEAC0QDGg9Gr1SJLAc2hJSH8V+dztNXQ E5s7QH8qwrhQ3UKI4OYeKA==; Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 10:13:52 +0300 Message-Id: <867cehjvpr.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87ed8pnc1w.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed8pnc1w.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: adam@HIDDEN, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, yantar92@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:52:43 +0200 > From: Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > These were exactly the kind of problems why those place expressions had > been obsoleted. Adding a little helper function with clear semantics > really looks more appropriate in this case in my opinion, even if you > have to remember one more name. Agreed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a
generalized variable
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Cc: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
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Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes:
>> While some of them are rarely/not used some others looks quite popular.
>> This is an indication that the popular ones are probably a good
>> abstraction or they are just convenient.
>
> More of the latter I would say. Nonetheless that's one aspect that
> counts.
>
> But especially `buffer-substring' doesn't convince me as a gv because
> semantics are very doubtful:
> ...
> These were exactly the kind of problems why those place expressions had
> been obsoleted.
Do note that the original reason of obsoletion was different:
48aacbf292fbe8d4be7761f83bf87de93497df27
Make many seldom-used generalized variables obsolete
The vast majority of these are unused in-tree, and many of them
perform actions that aren't obvious when reading the code.
No arguments have been listed about "actions that aren't obvious" wrt
`buffer-substring' generalized variable. And, as we see, "unused" is
only true for Emacs sources, but not for third-party libs.
> - You say (setf (buffer-substring START END) STRING). The first thing
> that is not crystal clear is the question whether STRING will be
> added, or will replace, existing text.
>
> - The END argument is either redundant, or, if text is replaced (which
> is what the current implementation does), it is unclear what happens
> if STRING has a length different from (- END START). The current
> implementation doesn't even fulfill the most _basic_ assumption about
> places: if STRING has a different length, after
> (setf (buffer-substring START END) STRING),
> (buffer-substring START END) will _not_ be equal to STRING. This is
> very bad, conceptually.
>
> - For this reason resetting the place to the old "value" will not
> always restore the old situation.
>
> - With `cl-letf' the generalized variable gets even more doubtful: if
> you edit the buffer contents inside the scope of the binding,
> reverting a `buffer-substring' gv binding will give surprising
> results, especially if START and END were specified as integers then
> pointing to unrelated positions.
FYI, I never had this kind of confusion. It is perfectly expected for
_buffers_ that any kind of modification may render point positions
inaccurate. If one needs to track specific region even when
modifications are performed, this is what markers are for. And markers
do work when used as arguments for buffer-substring.
> ... Adding a little helper function with clear semantics
> really looks more appropriate in this case in my opinion, even if you
> have to remember one more name.
Maybe. But I would argue that `buffer-substring' is already _the most
popular_ among obsoleted generized variables. Clearly, people do find it
useful; and, clearly, obsoleting it forces many library authors to do
extra work that is not justified.
I would be ok with adding a helper _in addition_ to generalized
variable, but I do not see it justified to make it replace it (at least,
not until we see that the added new helper is vastly more popular)
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jun 2024 22:52:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 21 18:52:08 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43992 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sKn72-0007xJ-2J for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 18:52:08 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:42025) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1sKn6z-0007wg-NA for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 18:52:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1719010313; x=1719615113; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=91Z6g7kDcMGJ46CjBQuwhUdK14dVpa5sKPUMfk7XLMw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=qm/y7TdQ6K2WOd+zDCWbMpfNBjD27Pcim/nxal+b4lhntBpAfYy/sJjxyW8cmPu3 fM6mNRaPVJb8ehEnVPTeLH9UtWpSkvwRnelMO54igldufHIYDD26FYhmWsGWD0SFl tf0uLLG3ZlDUbtvmkN3QO9s7Abup7QZKWIFOFP71v+CWNcEFGVxYzLMxHWiKyz4/q GnTj/NhjJ8nQwVbi616hL1DXYb91Aa1nfv5/Y5fOh+TJgf/hxhGxh8MCn9vvWBWm8 qG8UKOJGZj15mWB6Z5STaJcviKPd0atqYgDws8Wkg1My0jjZq3QZUypktFJFih84B /XxbINYELBSNnkuVrQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.113]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MhFhg-1spCFW3YwM-00kkyJ; Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:51:52 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> (Andrea Corallo's message of "Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:55:06 -0400") References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:52:43 +0200 Message-ID: <87ed8pnc1w.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:k23SwkFLpL1dnAukO+umejk/PN6NfbvgbuwqJBc4+I2eWY9du5M Kir0ct+zn5k4HuJDrytjjGqphaHvZTf9K9AWZJhjbynJypYnbWB7lTkiX2vwpjsB87H+biQ AaRVtBzVen9T4rAkFiYX7ueqc0jx1PAcGArhf7fUoDT4drmV0vmCgsbaeorWDu9WZw4t4CZ PAu/6KblaNMdZKhkz9U2w== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:lIYAjzAHE5E=;dei91eqLXxvO7OGabx/69Ftac3z WZ+eZvzckTxVZ21lUs5QUSu0lDPOI5+gxELHS83efgDbGftIGCTMZKXcbJh+/V466oP8Je5Eg DKNlEA2FMSu6ulFrdghLX5EuOOYLEYUaXvkKcmS9RzxtOfYuF+6S94zr70toHRO3tfeQFtOxt 9JtaHsAn8v7I6Czj5oWKVxH3VHzNgdoWeGv0Q2m5HwuIoEdmAlE5whPiB0QwiIhpgEN5qO+3a EnWk0wvgf4WrzzYQqNjk/zDk+0FWu6msLRcy6YY5H4LcJ2SUzsm+gE1J+gNBISx4Uhp/BmRBo hJJwyzZz9yL+bmTKpNND40vlHl6Kpz7fdSH5CTTUhheCwvR2iIrqjg8e6HFXijARNO4xPx1Tc ZvgDWzX9hMkyhUfqN2cLar+N8yl0Zwd+vPr/9lScbmVnVaHdIVWp4bSGj1alA/Xdhbj+NCEWj 25dOS06us/TQkw4ASLDqalYxPN0DT3VH2H5zgMdY2oCBpDkKkDTC6IRP9zBrQwc7nJ8meWTf0 uUTIkNtPwORqTP9IzpOVk1I8t9Pw/HxJUKm3gpg+UIRJwNVHW9euV/69CApyAnc4PkKJj1WSM uW10zA7K4vgidMNUOJnzFYkSoXgB8pBulVnhN8YlCZKdbVF0v0rPnDkI4z/jCNx8MFWbRhlk5 jKSJ26HL4yYZbSIhCXN/nFsHQ33KNk7A7IZYHexr8hBrTVvFQM8XRTa4e9e3PxcDlHiTV7eK3 12cEUC/BvO2QKBQES3KIklHEHQMkAWXYaMsOfrEZxGqUdVTyKH5VWd/OqUdErdBQxisoKIdSe EvCWm3fI7vFmdPlIqy0w9nAJ+VBEWbWcoEgthdvxLcmkQ= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> writes: > [...] > Interesting, I took the time to apply your methodology to all GV > obsoleted by the same commit and this is the result: > > | GV | file occurrences | > | | in github | > |------------------------------+------------------| > [... I picked the lines with 100+ matches ...] > | buffer-string | 142 | > | buffer-substring | 512 | > | current-buffer | 234 | > [...] > While some of them are rarely/not used some others looks quite popular. > This is an indication that the popular ones are probably a good > abstraction or they are just convenient. More of the latter I would say. Nonetheless that's one aspect that counts. But especially `buffer-substring' doesn't convince me as a gv because semantics are very doubtful: - You say (setf (buffer-substring START END) STRING). The first thing that is not crystal clear is the question whether STRING will be added, or will replace, existing text. - The END argument is either redundant, or, if text is replaced (which is what the current implementation does), it is unclear what happens if STRING has a length different from (- END START). The current implementation doesn't even fulfill the most _basic_ assumption about places: if STRING has a different length, after (setf (buffer-substring START END) STRING), (buffer-substring START END) will _not_ be equal to STRING. This is very bad, conceptually. - For this reason resetting the place to the old "value" will not always restore the old situation. - With `cl-letf' the generalized variable gets even more doubtful: if you edit the buffer contents inside the scope of the binding, reverting a `buffer-substring' gv binding will give surprising results, especially if START and END were specified as integers then pointing to unrelated positions. These were exactly the kind of problems why those place expressions had been obsoleted. Adding a little helper function with clear semantics really looks more appropriate in this case in my opinion, even if you have to remember one more name. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jun 2024 08:55:21 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 21 04:55:21 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56848 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sKa3F-0006UF-FR for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:55:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36538) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <acorallo@HIDDEN>) id 1sKa3C-0006U1-1Y for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:55:19 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <acorallo@HIDDEN>) id 1sKa31-0000go-6K; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:55:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=fjCfTHgqUclTzBGS0c2m9B3+CGGwbStmdK9Isbf/0/c=; b=r5vPk17Di0zj4smmQKzE J3+lROP9mlROpdt3jlm/7wKorbESB1r9g3OY/ap9eZbleUmYo4VeKZ3zUlsJQTYuuN7L84Ajkxu7p 6cIRnhZI97UUnvY3UqQz0ShnhfRCKG1apK99cYMHnyVDsZGTdOihABL4SBMIWmChJS4Gv/6BOEShN JkKGKZ0SeMQPAc/+fObsOi01eMF0b2nQwPdvVtd63IOAqnMHpDRMIsNsIicMH6FeYnnsUrygIzkKH addu1w2cTxLrlfStyefOXgw7v0RN7/OAuEuTL7wgKNFovderbSgRHVbX8c96ZUIUuO+8hALfO+rEe In1E0xex3XcPhQ==; Received: from acorallo by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <acorallo@HIDDEN>) id 1sKa30-0001ei-Fy; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:55:06 -0400 From: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Thu, 20 Jun 2024 15:46:04 +0000") References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:55:06 -0400 Message-ID: <yp1r0cqekut.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife > of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Any arguments why this gv is different from the others that had been >> deprecated? > > It is one of the commonly used gvs. > https://github.com/search?q=%22%28setf+%28buffer-substring%22&type=code > gives 500+ hits (and it is not all forks of one or two popular packages) Interesting, I took the time to apply your methodology to all GV obsoleted by the same commit and this is the result: | GV | file occurrences | | | in github | |------------------------------+------------------| | buffer-file-name | 5 | | buffer-modified-p | 7 | | buffer-name | 48 | | buffer-string | 142 | | buffer-substring | 512 | | current-buffer | 234 | | current-column | 3 | | current-global-map | 0 | | current-input-mode | 0 | | current-local-map | 0 | | current-window-configuration | 0 | | default-file-modes | 0 | | current-window-configuration | 0 | | default-file-modes | 0 | | documentation-property | 8 | | frame-height | 38 | | frame-visible-p | 0 | | global-key-binding | 3 | | local-key-binding | 0 | | mark | 4 | | mark-marker | 0 | | marker-position | 16 | | mouse-position | 7 | | point | 32 | | point-marker | 0 | | point-max | 0 | | point-min | 40 | | read-mouse-position | 0 | | screen-height | 4 | | screen-width | 15 | | selected-window | 4 | | selected-screen | 0 | | selected-frame | 0 | | standard-case-table | 0 | | syntax-table | 0 | | visited-file-modtime | 0 | | window-height | 13 | | window-width | 9 | | x-get-secondary-selection | 0 | While some of them are rarely/not used some others looks quite popular. This is an indication that the popular ones are probably a good abstraction or they are just convenient. I don't know what would be the risk of un-obsoleting the popular ones now, but if is not possible I think we should consider doing it for the next release cycle. Andrea
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jun 2024 15:44:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 20 11:44:37 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33928 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sKJxl-0005I2-6G for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 11:44:37 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:60961) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1sKJxh-0005Hi-Sc for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 11:44:35 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30838240101 for <71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 17:44:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1718898263; bh=buB+qxxVneUlhxiQrYh+9asfhlsfAZOFBWVtUDvE5dc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type: From; b=UHDyZnQCccaOzK3LdUTC9N7N+iIs4sI6+YYuc4U3ioLHJwoQs+KVwAYbzInoDF7Z/ 2PV3QVDaiKpp0v2ZAX/jJ0tMzp3NJZzMj3TI5mxv9Y3bXglmnILlKJBoTQCKSRic5G 33fyeoUSBGRldKD2lUUrFIddE4QV5r7/xLLwvmfTnliCRUH26J6f+sp6D4Sp7r3VP8 r3vyiXafNl2rVTrdkYI21ImZP+mMQkFi16UVIqHII1aRR6rDAjgy0+G1YFv6PjXnB2 8DE8CA7+Qfq8n82tdoeB6dTNuRfSLC6I9BD87geaj1giXLZNFT7+d2gxRtadIYBZC0 UXNQGOTu5mrLQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4W4lCl4qrvz9rxQ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 17:44:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <87iky4zedz.fsf@HIDDEN> <545868c6-1a14-4a3f-9939-da2477c0a902@HIDDEN> <871q4reij4.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 15:46:04 +0000 Message-ID: <87le2z7h37.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > Any arguments why this gv is different from the others that had been > deprecated? It is one of the commonly used gvs. https://github.com/search?q=%22%28setf+%28buffer-substring%22&type=code gives 500+ hits (and it is not all forks of one or two popular packages) -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) Hi Michael, On 6/19/24 18:44, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> writes: > >> ┌──── >> │ (let ((inhibit-read-only t)) >> │ (setf (buffer-substring (oref (magit-current-section) start) >> │ (oref (magit-current-section) end)) >> │ "foobar\n")) >> └──── >> >> Otherwise, one would have to use `delete-region' and then `insert', >> which is more cumbersome and error-prone. > > I guess alternatively you could define a helper function and make that > `setf'able, like > > #+begin_src emacs-lisp > (defalias 'magit-buffer-substring #'buffer-substring) > (gv-define-simple-setter magit-buffer-substring > cl--set-buffer-substring) > #+end_src I guess one could, but that would seem like making use of the marked-obsolete functionality in a roundabout way, and I'd guess that if it were eventually deprecated and removed, that would stop working, too (which one could work around by importing all of the old code, but it would be simpler to not obsolete it in the first place). --Adam, who will one day be marked obsolete, but whose time has not yet come, either. ;)
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From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
To: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a
generalized variable
In-Reply-To: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> (Adam
Porter's message of "Tue, 4 Jun 2024 20:33:13 -0500")
References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 01:44:40 +0200
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Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> writes:
> =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80
> =E2=94=82 (let ((inhibit-read-only t))
> =E2=94=82 (setf (buffer-substring (oref (magit-current-section) start)
> =E2=94=82 (oref (magit-current-section) end))
> =E2=94=82 "foobar\n"))
> =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80
>
> Otherwise, one would have to use `delete-region' and then `insert',
> which is more cumbersome and error-prone.
I guess alternatively you could define a helper function and make that
`setf'able, like
#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(defalias 'magit-buffer-substring #'buffer-substring)
(gv-define-simple-setter magit-buffer-substring
cl--set-buffer-substring)
#+end_src
Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a
generalized variable
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN>
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Content preview: Hi Eli, On 6/5/24 09:58, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Wed,
5 Jun 2024 09:16:53 -0500 >> Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> From: Adam Porter
<adam@HIDDEN> >> >>> I think it's too late to do this now, not wi
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Content preview: Hi Eli, On 6/5/24 09:58, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Wed,
5 Jun 2024 09:16:53 -0500 >> Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> From: Adam Porter
<adam@HIDDEN> >> >>> I think it's too late to do this now, not wi
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Hi Eli,
On 6/5/24 09:58, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 09:16:53 -0500
>> Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> From: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>
>>
>>> I think it's too late to do this now, not without a very good
>>> reason. Unless such a good reason emerges VSN, this will need to wait
>>> till Emacs 31 at least.
>>
>> That would mean years more of unnecessary compilation warnings' annoying
>> users when they install packages that use this form.
>
> Please also look at this from where I stand: if we keep adding
> last-minute changes that no one tried for long enough time, we will
> never start the Emacs 30 release cycle, because doing that with an
> unstable master branch is a very bad idea, and delaying the branch is
> the only way of knowing whether the master branch is okay after each
> change.
>
> So I must draw the line in the sand at some point (pun intended), and
> I just did, a few weeks ago.
Of course, I would not argue with that. I thought that un-marking these
forms as obsolete, and thereby removing the warnings, would merely be a
reversion that would not constitute a change in functionality, i.e. it
would not risk any breakage, so it would be a safe change to make at
this point. If that is not the case, or not in your judgment, I won't
argue with you; and I would ask that the change be made in the following
version.
Thanks,
Adam
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2024 14:58:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 05 10:58:47 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40792 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sEs6B-0002OC-FR for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 10:58:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sEs69-0002No-DV for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 10:58:46 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sEs5p-0008CP-9y; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 10:58:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=NJNhlichLrsrxq4ZR0lwpUIEdx1tdlLj5K64ahVTBYQ=; b=WL+7wl7u+g/X YKHLQC8ktkGwfYWiAYZ4JI8eEJ+/7vucJdkPOH6yz2ZiWu1z/bWtGOqbUUjo2FgYVFl/vI+Htzj1e u7zHuwe+gS9zmtULMr7rmJnZzAF3W38+F+XJnZVgyStf9yXBVa0VUcu1lDNV9VUEfZ+qK2slGd8pD qGQqQxKT08D/yE93hDqv4cSUI5mBYSaB6ObLd17f7cSKS/UviE4h8HIdbXunc0AJ+lb3moWwVQZMs CY6U1CIBFI0izk0O0GB9zWnX5e1Zn3emqA+l9yz1P4m8Hwt5X4w6+g0WzC3+soFoVPqa1lAiyiM1n 2hhNS03MPJ0ukovwn2mpdw==; Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 17:58:20 +0300 Message-Id: <868qzjjv1v.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <2dd5d406-3185-4484-8aa8-856e5d717d48@HIDDEN> (message from Adam Porter on Wed, 5 Jun 2024 09:16:53 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <86jzj3k3nd.fsf@HIDDEN> <2dd5d406-3185-4484-8aa8-856e5d717d48@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 09:16:53 -0500 > Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > From: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> > > > I think it's too late to do this now, not without a very good > > reason. Unless such a good reason emerges VSN, this will need to wait > > till Emacs 31 at least. > > That would mean years more of unnecessary compilation warnings' annoying > users when they install packages that use this form. Please also look at this from where I stand: if we keep adding last-minute changes that no one tried for long enough time, we will never start the Emacs 30 release cycle, because doing that with an unstable master branch is a very bad idea, and delaying the branch is the only way of knowing whether the master branch is okay after each change. So I must draw the line in the sand at some point (pun intended), and I just did, a few weeks ago.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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rspamd-7f76976655-vnhxx; auth=pass smtp.auth=dreamhost smtp.mailfrom=adam@HIDDEN X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|adam@HIDDEN X-MC-Relay: Junk X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|adam@HIDDEN X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Lonely-Sponge: 7dd855de6a83f6fc_1717597015727_4215723785 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1717597015727:4264184998 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1717597015727 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a254.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by 100.114.21.184 (trex/6.9.2); Wed, 05 Jun 2024 14:16:55 +0000 Received: from [10.43.43.133] (unknown [193.56.116.15]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: adam@HIDDEN) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a254.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4VvTzq05G4zCT; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 07:16:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alphapapa.net; s=dreamhost; t=1717597015; bh=yDbmVzyOnQpql1vuXgjfsRNQjN4dxm++eVNACeK8SRo=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LUkCsb+kw96c9O/SBg8WU9nuT0mFo24+Mr9BJjIgNir2znxbcveokuyWth6LV1/8y 8wBIiEYpbVJCcIxKw3a645dLipnSmV2kJ4LdDxcZLti71bx/r5JXdFWqwnuxsJX8iW 20KXyxtuc1JYPd4ysyA93DvVzv/YI7jUvI82coUFESfNhbmWTWQ0tFIx5MlQ0f7vLo fPWPOVcfsOvOGIQ0rD/8qhvB1wpzY0QKSii4q7DyT4ruhiixeuXz8E7I9uUV0Cpj2w Tp4twcCX0UWhuL4Z1wZf9CbertPUXlezzHVQp3A58ivrT82LJtlOS5HWpXJ4dvgc+t 8uecTEI7//zDg== Message-ID: <2dd5d406-3185-4484-8aa8-856e5d717d48@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 09:16:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <86jzj3k3nd.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US From: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <86jzj3k3nd.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) Hi Eli, On 6/5/24 06:52, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 20:33:13 -0500 From: Adam Porter >> <adam@HIDDEN> >> >> Continuing with the theme of requesting the unobsoleting of some >> generalized variable forms (see [#65555] and [earlier discussion]), >> and given Eli's recently [mentioning] the upcoming cut of the Emacs >> 30 release branch, I'd like to request now that `buffer-substring' >> be unmarked as obsolete. > > I think it's too late to do this now, not without a very good > reason. Unless such a good reason emerges VSN, this will need to wait > till Emacs 31 at least. That would mean years more of unnecessary compilation warnings' annoying users when they install packages that use this form. Some of these users misunderstand them as bugs and report them to package developers, which wastes everyone's time. It also clutters lint/build logs on CI, sometimes making it impossible to have a clean linting pass (which requires the developer to manually inspect every "failed" run to see if it's just another of these warnings). >> This form makes some operations much more concise than they would >> otherwise be. For example, if one wants to update the text in a >> `magit-section' section, the code could be as simple as this: >> >> ┌──── │ (let ((inhibit-read-only t)) │ (setf (buffer-substring >> (oref (magit-current-section) start) │ (oref >> (magit-current-section) end)) │ "foobar\n")) └──── >> >> Otherwise, one would have to use `delete-region' and then >> `insert', which is more cumbersome and error-prone. > > I don't understand why it would be cumbersome, let alone > error-prone. Less convenient than using setf, yes, but "cumbersome"? > We've been doing that for decades. The alternative means having to bind positions in variables, use `goto-char' and `delete-region' and `insert' in a larger, more complex form. To me that seems much more cumbersome than this elegant GV form which is a simple way of saying, "Replace that region with these contents." > IOW, this is just a matter of convenience, nothing more. *shrug* Convenient code abstractions are easier to understand and maintain; that's why I like to use this form, and why I like to use Lisp. >> As I've mentioned in earlier discussions, the mass-marking of >> several GV forms as obsolete in commit >> 48aacbf292fbe8d4be7761f83bf87de93497df27 happened apparently >> without public discussion, as well as without checking the extent >> to which they are used outside of emacs.git. > > We don't discuss obsoletion, because it is never final. The > rationale for obsoleting those forms is explained in the log message, > so I think the implied accusation here is misplaced. It was not meant as an accusation--just a statement of fact, an observation; if I was incorrect, I'll be happy to be corrected. My point, of course, is that the marking--and creation of these new compilation warnings--happened without asking if anyone would be affected by it. >> By the way, I'd also like to request that the `point' and >> `window-point' GV forms be unobsoleted, for the same reasons. If >> it's permissible, I'd like to do so here rather than file separate >> bug reports for each of those, but if the maintainers prefer, I >> will do so. > > Let's see how many people want that now. In fairness to them, most probably don't monitor emacs-bugs and are unlikely to see this report, so I don't know if looking for replies here would be an accurate indicator of interest. > Use of those specific forms as GV was obsoleted in 48aacbf29 because > they are rarely if ever used as GV. Unless this and the other two > requests suddenly get crowds of people demanding to un-obsolete them > (probably unlikely, since where were those people for the last 2 > years?), I think Lars's decision to obsolete them is still solid. I don't understand how an apparent lack of internal use is a good reason to obsolete something useful. There are parts of Emacs that seem to get less use than these forms which are not marked obsolete. As an Elisp developer and tutor, I would like to see these forms used more frequently, both inside and outside of emacs.git. Emacs and Elisp are so large that it takes years for knowledge about new or little-known features to become widespread, and GVs in general are already a more advanced sub-topic. I feel like obsoleting these forms is hardly giving them a chance, and doing so because they aren't yet widely used is like a catch-22. --Adam
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2024 12:10:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 05 08:10:27 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56618 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sEpTF-0002rK-TV for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 08:10:27 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:56261) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1sEpRC-0002jd-LZ for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 08:08:19 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55135240027 for <71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 14:07:58 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1717589278; bh=uFtnyNmtK3CT2JvuhqDSQyT/l6w2CXKY9TIVtr7q9JU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:From; b=oETDDLZgLD9w0+MUfn/FWa0BOXYBO4WSBGzQJ0trALNFeT3mk2fSe/MY7rImucU+m Qh2f6QkyC2x60bqEcFLxZ+0RUkE0eNmDcnfMcFaXxXEKLur2aIqP8iePd94Bysr0uA PgHiyrhddnMsenR8IVEOJJXjIAykSqtaQRxOE1BghEzDWp4iUSopwT8XuyvWIBiSjC HuYLD92cQ332WZd4zRHexdBMFzJI9XjIIxw8ggn+wkMZFw9FgRCQ3LmJ4CRdaXO3f4 w+ixCqlQjQY/byA4MtSCqkJKlQ8eVzL4Bm5oE2FvQtcAxvndooIey32stID/9mFRb+ 4kD79xkgr/eIg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4VvR7118g0z6v04; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 14:07:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable In-Reply-To: <86jzj3k3nd.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> <86jzj3k3nd.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 12:09:40 +0000 Message-ID: <87frtr7fqz.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>, 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80 >> =E2=94=82 (let ((inhibit-read-only t)) >> =E2=94=82 (setf (buffer-substring (oref (magit-current-section) start) >> =E2=94=82 (oref (magit-current-section) end)) >> =E2=94=82 "foobar\n")) >> =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80 >>=20 >> Otherwise, one would have to use `delete-region' and then `insert', >> which is more cumbersome and error-prone. > > I don't understand why it would be cumbersome, let alone error-prone. > Less convenient than using setf, yes, but "cumbersome"? We've been > doing that for decades. setf is still a lot more convenient. It is also fairly commonly used - Org mode did use it; github search reveals pretty frequent use in packages and configs; I stumbled upon this warning a number of times when compiling the packages I load in my config. So, if the only reason to obsolete `buffer-substring' is that it is unused, I'd prefer it not to be obsoleted. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 71370) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2024 11:53:05 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 05 07:53:05 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55434 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1sEpCS-0001to-KL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 07:53:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58286) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sEpCQ-0001sG-M2 for 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 07:53:03 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1sEpC6-000210-8j; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 07:52:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=GfoC/YqiUZQa5YjZZoUM8AF98IrEfI2NEpyvZQm+a+U=; b=VfWO4oo6Ju71yFsdMatV VrYzfeBEATGCcXGSGjJV66JNHnoutzlqOHONPpOo1S1GBqPRkU6lXBWC9XD29Lz58SCUPOJ5rZ2wT MYb2VJWBubz2A24h88wtk+wfEgFlTlyvdp/8n6KDWFZsWIPuoMybIoPX61MgkpKKIUeTkConIdx21 b4m/bJpXJuDBJ5HjDJx3wtG2d1Z+k3qGiG8L2JF2HVNY7qhHXUyl61YH5Lo9tbsFfK53sJRrtKKXX /LnYS2JJIToYwg7gmdCI8UtnxqE+AI1W+z6zBHJyyEQ4ECUWuSWvLGSLeq1rc7ZWg5Aplgwhz1zXa 3gvCLiM2maLfgQ==; Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 14:52:38 +0300 Message-Id: <86jzj3k3nd.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> (message from Adam Porter on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 20:33:13 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#71370: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable References: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 71370 Cc: 71370 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 20:33:13 -0500 > From: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> > > Continuing with the theme of requesting the unobsoleting of some > generalized variable forms (see [#65555] and [earlier discussion]), and > given Eli's recently [mentioning] the upcoming cut of the Emacs 30 > release branch, I'd like to request now that `buffer-substring' be > unmarked as obsolete. I think it's too late to do this now, not without a very good reason. Unless such a good reason emerges VSN, this will need to wait till Emacs 31 at least. > This form makes some operations much more concise than they would > otherwise be. For example, if one wants to update the text in a > `magit-section' section, the code could be as simple as this: > > ┌──── > │ (let ((inhibit-read-only t)) > │ (setf (buffer-substring (oref (magit-current-section) start) > │ (oref (magit-current-section) end)) > │ "foobar\n")) > └──── > > Otherwise, one would have to use `delete-region' and then `insert', > which is more cumbersome and error-prone. I don't understand why it would be cumbersome, let alone error-prone. Less convenient than using setf, yes, but "cumbersome"? We've been doing that for decades. Use of those specific forms as GV was obsoleted in 48aacbf29 because they are rarely if ever used as GV. Unless this and the other two requests suddenly get crowds of people demanding to un-obsolete them (probably unlikely, since where were those people for the last 2 years?), I think Lars's decision to obsolete them is still solid. IOW, this is just a matter of convenience, nothing more. > As I've mentioned in earlier discussions, the mass-marking of several GV > forms as obsolete in commit 48aacbf292fbe8d4be7761f83bf87de93497df27 > happened apparently without public discussion, as well as without > checking the extent to which they are used outside of emacs.git. We don't discuss obsoletion, because it is never final. The rationale for obsoleting those forms is explained in the log message, so I think the implied accusation here is misplaced. > By the way, I'd also like to request that the `point' and `window-point' > GV forms be unobsoleted, for the same reasons. If it's permissible, I'd > like to do so here rather than file separate bug reports for each of > those, but if the maintainers prefer, I will do so. Let's see how many people want that now.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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Wed, 05 Jun 2024 01:33:15 +0000 Received: from [10.43.1.13] (unknown [193.56.116.15]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: adam@HIDDEN) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a301.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Vv92g05S0zCw for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Tue, 4 Jun 2024 18:33:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alphapapa.net; s=dreamhost; t=1717551195; bh=StK57Oxv39G+Dz59ajU36PlKfgeK/+BAm4COVXH3/Q8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pwZJqqIHy8dupn3yTyrrjxMvX1opncQOn7/a8RlwHYm0K4DwcLo3CNo8+YF+I3kAS Fw8AHH6jzCZYzFCxXDCk8/zH/wQiVreQB9eT5pZUu0oP5x1MnnPJxASzRCQbJ/S5hV w4WTB1j2iI5G1bYmE3g3SqU0KKEYAlX1e+S0eaMqaAV9Yt6uvGmrHGJXpnulA08rQJ w5hpcKpfJtboyZj33Pfoak10EMazgWc2fd+2iBMrPnAM1E7ZfItXxqZsolvhhwIB7j /4uiCOq0zAZ6UGPhalYpdyg7sKdPJpsa36CEfWbzu1fpZW5WV0yrkrQf8Tjp9GIbgs wk//SR7II//Cw== Message-ID: <b1bd201f-8e24-479a-ba59-b5004e5f3ee9@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 20:33:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN> Subject: 30.0.50; Please un-obsolete buffer-substring as a generalized variable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: neutral client-ip=23.83.223.9; envelope-from=adam@HIDDEN; helo=bactrian.cherry.relay.mailchannels.net X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Hi, Continuing with the theme of requesting the unobsoleting of some generalized variable forms (see [#65555] and [earlier discussion]), and given Eli's recently [mentioning] the upcoming cut of the Emacs 30 release branch, I'd like to request now that `buffer-substring' be unmarked as obsolete. This form makes some operations much more concise than they would otherwise be. For example, if one wants to update the text in a `magit-section' section, the code could be as simple as this: ┌──── │ (let ((inhibit-read-only t)) │ (setf (buffer-substring (oref (magit-current-section) start) │ (oref (magit-current-section) end)) │ "foobar\n")) └──── Otherwise, one would have to use `delete-region' and then `insert', which is more cumbersome and error-prone. As well, code exists in the wild which uses this form: for example, [pcre2el], a very useful library which I use in `magit-todos' to convert regexp between Elisp and Perl-styles. Overall, it's a useful paradigm that makes code more readable and concise, and I'm not aware of any drawbacks to using it; if there are any, I think they should be discussed publicly before marking the form as obsolete. As I've mentioned in earlier discussions, the mass-marking of several GV forms as obsolete in commit 48aacbf292fbe8d4be7761f83bf87de93497df27 happened apparently without public discussion, as well as without checking the extent to which they are used outside of emacs.git. By the way, I'd also like to request that the `point' and `window-point' GV forms be unobsoleted, for the same reasons. If it's permissible, I'd like to do so here rather than file separate bug reports for each of those, but if the maintainers prefer, I will do so. Thanks for your consideration, and your work on Emacs. –Adam [#65555] <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=65555> [earlier discussion] <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2022-11/msg01408.html> [mentioning] <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-06/msg00042.html> [pcre2el] <https://github.com/joddie/pcre2el/blob/380723b2701cceb75c266440fb8db918f3340d50/pcre2el.el#L663>
Adam Porter <adam@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#71370; Package emacs.
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