Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2024 00:45:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 23 19:45:56 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59970 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tF0l9-0000Dr-O3 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:45:56 -0500 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:45072) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1tF0l8-0000DW-6b for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:45:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=tz/NoadWy/g+4fX7TcUbHeWMjnuXbN2CZVZDVX5YdDsQ77mITUzM8sjI+xNQ4er/OjEoRlqRKDsI7vVWMsCkoVDDpLRiA4OKoF3VREUZiDyVHC5ATLfUUI4v0tvSRvb2LNaSwhlMr/B0PG4/ubEe8KuI/BaZ7Q8s1fDItSBJzyZ+MWtEsAnTaoBYNwo0r7zH5/qjSRjGDW+b0PSpPBxDUWhFbTfU/WNLZFZeAEdEyZT1IqnQZ3lUgmrtTH7+h/8Ow6PkBufkrqqlUhmrTGVF50aEeGqQ9sTqI3A1YupmzauzGM9HEdb2Iq0fq89mx9TB6MR7vjZfnK3+8VwJnCvV3A==; s=purelymail3; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=/rzUXUNd16yfX9G5POckoNH4qXvIPKsanQ5Xei2P/Gk=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=4dlLgYcrvVWcnWnQ+FkvzDkSr445gc663PSDAawWrvsdovKbgPujRx+3QdQXag8eCh2lu5MBbvy6U9Zh9OKR3UgM6KRapYGvICvj118OONrruvo7mWn8ZuO5EOox7mJS7NaNW/6u3zeF3/1VYce7ymm47ZK30F6w9wX7UG+AZlsTDfUebAjmbjVg3Lw6k0S2DOZGCOIDGOTsY+WTu7GhDvP7lxyW9gB3Su7dn9+EVi5f48Fd1PcaKsr2tQWT1VKWTkSI3nUgfpHyV7Jx/KfDR1uZ24lDtUPcr4Ig3kBJqJMg+YaLJ9IqfZ37U2p92Gq8jx9WDls4ebOOIZd3S5DVhw==; s=purelymail3; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=/rzUXUNd16yfX9G5POckoNH4qXvIPKsanQ5Xei2P/Gk=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id 845082914; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Sun, 24 Nov 2024 00:45:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9EE107E36F9; Sun, 24 Nov 2024 08:45:43 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmeNajX9hEaaUT2b=tsy2E5SF+gvTCTjgt8+Qmts9+FXg@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:14:43 -0500") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmXo6XnK5pfSb83=n0hj6u5LXBEzc3nJykU4cfPm+KXaQ@HIDDEN> <878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwved332h0p.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a5dqxbld.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmeNajX9hEaaUT2b=tsy2E5SF+gvTCTjgt8+Qmts9+FXg@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 08:45:43 +0800 Message-ID: <87o725wjbc.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Sat 23 Nov 2024 at 11:14am -05, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I think this is just inherent to the fact that these macros depend on >> each other, though it would be nice to fix if we can. > > I think `with-suppressed-warnings` should work here. At least for bytecompiled files, it seems. Installed, thanks both. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: > On Fri 22 Nov 2024 at 02:46pm -05, Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote: > >> Beside the use of `make-obsolete` instead of putting the `obsolete` >> inside `declare`, > > I didn't know about this distinction. Can you let me know why it would > be better to use a declaration? AFAIK, while they are technically the same, using a declaration is cleaner. We prefer it for that reason. >> I see a more serious problem with this patch. E.g. >> >> (defun my-foo () (when-let ((x (point))) (goto-char x))) >> >> gives 2 warnings rather than one: > > I think this is just inherent to the fact that these macros depend on > each other, though it would be nice to fix if we can. I think `with-suppressed-warnings` should work here.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2024 14:35:12 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 23 09:35:12 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57281 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tErE7-0001lx-M9 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 09:35:12 -0500 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:55136) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1tErE3-0001kz-ES for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 09:35:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=jYmidRyK3Dym9fMkYgRAGbac0lbeZfyc/htUltWOkZOE6TY9Wq/ulBUq0A0fcszmdJvZt3FBSBtte0XrscPOk/DR8obhLB3aNR7ulz4s6WyM7Tvueb5LFfybky5ZqfPev7szrT5kE68xElQw5lBejrLhGtbT9jEW5jQrQzGlACiC4ZZ63Vv0CixN5tG57G1oyOGbnbklDdFUkDJuN6eYZoUZ/ylhBH46We954pw0CbCViC/tBHtu3nk17e/9iATGrLcMBEdC8d+fjWdMA5o0l80p8R4uQ+uXxhx5CvpaLsqQlgfgEHhmcftdYD9mJS50sjqvmDiLgPHJxa9wOto1Ag==; s=purelymail3; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=rfG6GTM3y0r778K6lO5oewk1giyFUeDsvsOEBfoK8Jg=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=NcmibnW3lSOFSIyzScapt5xfxFwr6FDYa3SsQj8Ex6YHNsA4wGbDVWCBnawJokgtxylX98par7Y3Ql/YThpMexl3XJ65jKW1ces90Q00k1z8ftfp+Sp5h23gsXKoZtihBFBSTs4m9dIs7rpqyxUPf4HFlkEbEnZ7e2LNGwjJ9MOYXiPaCIvlYX5hygtZdMF1NKa/G7mXsoGdFXKiYRCIizApCtHm3C9H8zP9Of1kuUnlddXMQqGyc4CIKpihvX2WXuwRZtm+VSRgDxPEij0of+c4VN6nBfumIGx3oMzqUTBmkUjqjav1Pl3o5tML6rdNe+4o9CPWYpoadSZpe7+q0Q==; s=purelymail3; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=rfG6GTM3y0r778K6lO5oewk1giyFUeDsvsOEBfoK8Jg=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id 1337527534; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Sat, 23 Nov 2024 14:35:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4F5117E1FCA; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 22:34:54 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <jwved332h0p.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier via's message of "Fri, 22 Nov 2024 14:46:30 -0500") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmXo6XnK5pfSb83=n0hj6u5LXBEzc3nJykU4cfPm+KXaQ@HIDDEN> <878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwved332h0p.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 22:34:54 +0800 Message-ID: <87a5dqxbld.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Fri 22 Nov 2024 at 02:46pm -05, Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote: >>>>> - I'd like to go ahead and install a patch marking when-let and if-let >>>>> as obsolete, unless Michael is keen to be the one to do it as the >>>>> initiator of the previous effort > [...] >> Done. > > Beside the use of `make-obsolete` instead of putting the `obsolete` > inside `declare`, I didn't know about this distinction. Can you let me know why it would be better to use a declaration? > I see a more serious problem with this patch. E.g. > > (defun my-foo () (when-let ((x (point))) (goto-char x))) > > gives 2 warnings rather than one: I think this is just inherent to the fact that these macros depend on each other, though it would be nice to fix if we can. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for
when-let*?
In-Reply-To: <878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN> (Sean Whitton's message
of "Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:51:56 +0800")
Message-ID: <jwved332h0p.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN>
<87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmmXo6XnK5pfSb83=n0hj6u5LXBEzc3nJykU4cfPm+KXaQ@HIDDEN>
<878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 14:46:30 -0500
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Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>,
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>>>> - I'd like to go ahead and install a patch marking when-let and if-l=
et
>>>> as obsolete, unless Michael is keen to be the one to do it as the
>>>> initiator of the previous effort
[...]
> Done.
Beside the use of `make-obsolete` instead of putting the `obsolete`
inside `declare`, I see a more serious problem with this patch.
E.g.
(defun my-foo () (when-let ((x (point))) (goto-char x)))
gives 2 warnings rather than one:
In my-foo:
foo.el:3:19: Warning: =E2=80=98when-let=E2=80=99 is an obsolete macro (=
as of 31.1); use
=E2=80=98when-let*=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98and-let*=E2=80=99 instead.
foo.el:3:2: Warning: =E2=80=98if-let=E2=80=99 is an obsolete macro (as =
of 31.1); use =E2=80=98if-let*=E2=80=99
instead.
- Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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To: Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN> writes: > I intend to reply soon but I am stressed out right now and have to take > it slow to avoid burning out. I currently feel like a volcano went off > and there are fires all over the place that I have to put out. > > There's this issue, which due to its urgency makes everything else that > is going on even more stressful. Many more issues than normal have been > opened in my own repository over the last few days, about two dozen, > including some bugs that should be addressed quickly. I also have no > choice but to skip the montly release day, which since its introduction > a few months ago has helps me release stress. And on top of all that, > I have just been asked to intervene (and/or provide an outside > perspective) in a bullying case. > > I was going to prioritize the foo-let issue over everything else, and > was just about to reply to your message, when I saw the mail about the > bullying, which I have decided to prioritize instead. I'm sorry to hear that things have been stressful. FWIW, I don't see a huge rush here. Emacs 31 is still far away, and while some package authors are meticulously tracking master, an effort that is of course greatly appreciated, the overwhelming majority don't. So this won't affect the lions share of Emacs Lisp users any time soon. That is to say, please take your time. The last thing we want is for you or anyone else to burn out.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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From: Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for
when-let*?
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Hello Stefan,
Thanks for you reply!
I intend to reply soon but I am stressed out right now and have to take
it slow to avoid burning out. I currently feel like a volcano went off
and there are fires all over the place that I have to put out.
There's this issue, which due to its urgency makes everything else that
is going on even more stressful. Many more issues than normal have been
opened in my own repository over the last few days, about two dozen,
including some bugs that should be addressed quickly. I also have no
choice but to skip the montly release day, which since its introduction
a few months ago has helps me release stress. And on top of all that,
I have just been asked to intervene (and/or provide an outside
perspective) in a bullying case.
I was going to prioritize the foo-let issue over everything else, and
was just about to reply to your message, when I saw the mail about the
bullying, which I have decided to prioritize instead.
> Do you have a suggestion for what we should do instead?
In my next response I will concentrate on that. I.e., I'll do one of
the things I earlier suggested we all do, think about what *my* (your)
ideal solution would look like.
Jonas
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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To: Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN> writes: > It is very disappointing that you have chosen to deprecate if-let and > when-let in such a rushed manner. The same was done and reverted in > 2018, and many of the same actors are involved this time around. > I am surprised that you would make the same unforced error again. > > Reading through this and past conversations it is clear that there is no > consensus what the ultimate goal is. But as far as I can tell, few, if > any, are fully satisfied with the current (30.0.*) situation. There > also seems to be agreement that unfortunate mistakes were made in the > past, which limits our options now. The goal is: - To not have two macros doing the same thing, i.e. the pairs `when-let`/`when-let*` and `if-let`/`if-let*`. - To deprecate the single binding version of `when-let`. > This could have been prevented if more people (including non-debbugs and > non-emacs-devel regulars) were given a chance to think about the problem > and time to articulate their concerns and proposals, before facts were > created. Or even if the people who did take part in past conversations > had spend more time actually talking things through. I can agree that the timeline might have been on the shorter end here. That said, I wasn't aware of any large controversy surrounding this. If I was, I might have suggested that we give this more time. > The same could have been done every time the dissatisfying state of the > foo-let forms was brought up again, but instead new facts were rushed at > every turn. > > Without stopping this destructive pattern, you won't be able to fix this > mess. I don't know what this is in reference to, sorry. I feel like I'm missing some background. Could you perhaps help fill me in? I searched the archives, but failed to find anything relevant. > My short-term proposal is this: Hmm, the points you raise are interesting but procedural in character. Besides your concern that people might be unhappy with the decision, a point that is fully taken, perhaps it would help if we could focus on technical points instead. Your proposal seems to be that we should rethink the decision to mark `when-let`/`if-let` as obsolete. Is that correct? If yes, perhaps you could explain this in more detail? What problem do you see with marking them as obsolete? Do you have a suggestion for what we should do instead?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Oct 2024 12:55:36 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 30 08:55:36 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34957 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t68Ea-0000ME-66 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 08:55:36 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f47.google.com ([209.85.160.47]:38916) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mplscorwin@HIDDEN>) id 1t68EX-0000M3-TV for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 08:55:34 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f47.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2888bcc0f15so1073159fac.0 for <73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 05:55:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1730292927; x=1730897727; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5CuQYmUaP1FsSzg9VZ1cJaw3Efx09yOLzCnDF3s23mE=; b=ZQd4IJYJ79veJr2BIkiVg6R5DdlheG996JEaat6VQd6RdS9+J9WHfgleNj41bPzq0Y x0fhKQ2ThW8QtG2LqhgYyOWo8vhe3mUH0Gg5wAePSMqRfiWAAIc/aidjwB/KFAQabYuQ tLoRM6aTaR8/k1SAoHoRb7wZucyJPdSwP/PMU1MCvoPRHOhJifTDIIGVD6wZ2qSu7vnD gUKpzZ8yuZUeAWONgra1qc9ICyLLkZVgVUrS9HK8T8tLYpUgdLnmfskWnTXCkX0Dl7tO U/S7IYIuWM0KcIcsjn+AxbjvrlCCYZ5rZXQ2L/7guYvjMiZD91UHCICdd3OV4VRnJ7ke w4Ww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YydVcpkHJ7E9uOzmY4evT1N1W5MLGujF0aPblHF+MmQCr+dEsUb 8iVNeACOD1KRKO+3KKllsm56thyaNiYchAyKq0BN2hZ16DTlmzUV+SSTWRWpVhMl+bv0piJynK9 XwPoyf5Llx1BBDNY0C4eszrr43vo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGxerO3aLgC9H6M+8EUHPL547eu0UGqXUnCGrmJsw6PhJKuglwOhFwbmrZX3KewyLSUkNJ2t7Is+1B7JNDQ+Wc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:2b12:b0:718:41c3:3ed6 with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-7186828eb8cmr4448335a34.3.1730292926029; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 05:55:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed3zndd6.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87ed3zndd6.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 07:55:14 -0500 Message-ID: <CAJf-WoSv5qXK7OMaAK_ddZxxQGpq10wvuWGmCk2P0JmVcrQ=yg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? To: Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 10:21=E2=80=AFAM Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN>= wrote: > > It is very disappointing that you have chosen to deprecate if-let and > when-let in such a rushed manner. The same was done and reverted in > > - Revert the depredations and remove the news entry. > +1
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Oct 2024 09:42:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 30 05:42:16 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34329 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t65DT-0002Lc-Vd for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 05:42:16 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:49961) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t65DR-0002LU-8W for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 05:42:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1730281325; x=1730886125; i=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; bh=ENYOOGGAPsuESMn9EC7GCNsMXyQ0bU4EAWxbxJGe1gk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=QZQyMVVGMV9mTvrt8LvXsKuYNQJlBZCgAaBGANWQovoF6iiWlwzhR7ioAYoy4keB /lR4bqzj/rEZJOo5C/TAL5H623tegkJyWtSmo37DJsZlBTQS6Mo4ClFKsUE6TLzcX ve/1gFc7bCDAX7oKF2WuB2/p5lMIXRabfIxV9MHGGQ9qwLlXrTCN2rAxz7eWK/4dc 3po9hq6lBQcLdM8t0/1BGAH93hBPcFR5QU1w5MnZignc0aJJ8fmdonpFHpmzA4BLi pLlWnUx2n0acwzX/RrINRHJNPDy9SPIjN7B46CqxbY+xVDiIL0PG8sP6SOuyEyG76 TOzNJ0+TLz/adQsG0Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.38.155]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mzhj9-1u0mRI0SMD-00uQhc; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 10:42:05 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87o738s7ta.fsf@HIDDEN> (Sean Whitton's message of "Fri, 25 Oct 2024 20:09:21 +0800") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmXo6XnK5pfSb83=n0hj6u5LXBEzc3nJykU4cfPm+KXaQ@HIDDEN> <878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o738s7ta.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 10:42:03 +0100 Message-ID: <87wmhq3p1w.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:anGYChQ6uTimwaKjY3H2cXQ/mO7fTScF0T7OejQa7Fr7CH3X4DU i2nb9uFEGU7J3srfX0fzooSHfPRn9Rq6LFWVk+t7udcHjRKqOTr2hEBlWEXDzhbrvXbGpI3 QRK0ZaW3Ke5S2sENMDgi/QUNVXZWTlOtzglZ/TbRWctYBUUegqPw8h9J56i2iCsPEs+A5AG 3VjmaGMY3zC2KLZOJby0g== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:wDbDmP2TbaA=;TMQMZAm6MiIpKf/z8SW+2ZwoyPE xarAWDndou3HGpf9LveP+ItwBgmdK2ZA/6RSnAIte2WV/XUCKC09/G8B8AJYbnEF1EevHLWzu 3PP1NB9geEIuN+tDFxgnlJI3TyM9C4hLPguUcfZujQgAD5m9ODd38pu4QN3/hWfynQmWW3RdZ zHbpGeXm7Qn9/eymUpOqIegGFi10q9Umt5ZQyba2wwdDUT9QwwGDwdFYbcdK1DLSIsNWDMzX2 OhbwCJxnzItwrBHLrRGG+YugusX8Xn8pvx22myvHmjGbip+DlhC9+oXBJTq536rkz3/MDGbae tGPti4GW+IOwNMdY8l1xl2e8gG7jxCs5PqPfd5zUrU5rOIh7aVeN415pCcBPY6N6PSANA/li5 SxCQ8M0UNHMrmrhpmbrDWmMjShSYPFiK7P312x4zKPqDD/+dTV2dgs58bAdSL7gCimCpYwCFm oTyUGvMUpb0LiaHE3mc2SMnf90QXEFJQUevdo1mfg5GZgFD4R40YEryBUoSIjpNwgAcJE6rwX mJNBF/IHtoYbVnUTYIjnN10EnPbZqnvbYjFjwZDVjTKHo8Yk9qW81LlWB4/aJwh4Zb4E1jOSE xZMvAnxrw97d6OaVvOzXV6IhjeokmfRhi3S3TPNpB1tdEtNQDG4ZkWiBCQgXRR87B/MDyVQX7 lkgd4x56dK9KZta32XGRg87lMndE3rxfRBJxKvbYFnH653xAYrurelHXwlku5OaPysQ4UsWbU 7yBUQkn2WmvbrHtrJxNe6QQQlURMyOvu5+UVXH6XA1AQy8IJMzi+sWvOyrA5swI1xMqKVMjKb 7/Pc4+2yGy3tXSnr3sDcLRUA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: > Hello, Hi Sean, > - Michael reports he is handling TRAMP in tramp.git and will import here > at an appropriate time. Done. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Oct 2024 00:50:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 29 20:50:15 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59992 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t5wud-0001mn-F9 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2024 20:50:15 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:50296) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t5wua-0001k3-Tz for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2024 20:50:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=kZfZOSDykWfJykfnz8I+gGi4eiZjdKJfZwS3675Oqbh59nCli/cb0CeievC4ZyGFYhBrAz/U6QAPFSDS4Bt5K/Ixu/k+zV09gj+XW2SiS6Gyq0+MkvLxEWQWxeR0YOboRKFh/wH1XA5EfZQ/Cr7Uc67i5mUosMEmozurmXq7zSpFiYdVcd1eVsJxw+v4ZoomrcWvxdbYsJEiP2iK89EBRtp5WEI5OO7pBLnYBYBgaLwBPgjrZh/EVmZFkQqBQwJitxowC1BpNagFH7wdY7eEwHyEbfuqpFTzK5USdsxVh03l0I6zQK/hOgFanfuksci30Ym5fnU/p/GueJ11nZ5X7g==; s=purelymail3; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=6i/8HxgwsnjLjMuSPagGYrRcjUB1mc9rup7X68ozF1k=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=GUKujrsVJ8bhm5psxY/bMaMQU5A+vIfy9TdiqY7C6dTWus8iAYHEDE06rSTWLY0oC9nsuwGbqLVBCFx5PwPqLazkUku90gC0CT+t5udiYq60r/rdxOkQzwpniFXHDPXRGdhDRVnRwbv0b8U1D08gXYcScoOaHFIXxNKVX79xnnHUhTS4uNwkYewEUg+3Il/aieD01BO6rYW69NwkKh1XiO5DEtVGL1xEH2dwumtio13vck/zEmSDSpCcoJXbXJv74VtOf2XO+qGB5MYIUiDADbu6i9de/9UMDutWCuubJu3O0c1RK+Tgz0URECmLBhiXUOrnhr8tc50pduOJV7e5Mg==; s=purelymail3; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=6i/8HxgwsnjLjMuSPagGYrRcjUB1mc9rup7X68ozF1k=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id 1007134240; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Wed, 30 Oct 2024 00:50:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F1C777EEAC1; Wed, 30 Oct 2024 08:49:57 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87ed3zndd6.fsf@HIDDEN> (Jonas Bernoulli's message of "Tue, 29 Oct 2024 16:21:57 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed3zndd6.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 08:49:57 +0800 Message-ID: <871pzye7nu.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, I think that you are overstating the level of disagreement. A lot of the discussions we have been having have been academic. We all agree that the legacy single binding syntax should be removed (I noticed that you didn't use that syntax anywhere in transient.el, when I updated it). The only question then is how exactly to deprecate that syntax. There is not complete agreement on the method of deprecation. But there never was going to be: it was a case where a head maintainer just had to make a choice about it, as Stefan did. Those who disagree are often tempted to say that there should have been more discussion. But it is reasonable to think about whether it is likely that further discussion would yield additional truth. I think it was clear to us here that, in this case, it would not. And indeed, instead of pointing out some critical point that you think we missed concerning this deprecation, in your message you instead wrote about highly abstract issues in design. The specific reason this change had to be backed out before has been addressed, in the interim. It was the time to do this. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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Some such discussions could even benefit from a mention in other places, such as help-gnu-emacs, so more users could tune in to the discussion in emacs-devel if they're interested.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2024 15:22:05 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 29 11:22:05 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56934 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t5o2m-0008VL-Lw for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2024 11:22:05 -0400 Received: from mail.hostpark.net ([212.243.197.30]:36840) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <jonas@HIDDEN>) id 1t5o2j-0008Uw-LL for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2024 11:22:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hostpark.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A1216610 for <73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 29 Oct 2024 16:21:59 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bernoul.li; h= content-type:content-type:mime-version:message-id:date:date :subject:subject:from:from; s=sel2011a; t=1730215319; bh=tPUyniD /HQM0Xg2ANAQgj9gHpgtFZw+DXUcOZ1W7vf0=; b=fMFYojQnNARYyEyYZP/Mv4f k2DZxsIakSHpz5JxPfNeXM7A9N14123Nsfb+E38sp2A5lXxtnomorTaJHAXJoeiQ 66G5HZAupaRmNGIZZcSHb6T//0fN0qcj7TmO+EK5OfJNpbuBT4EG5Rut/jmfwdy9 3NQXYSOP4V1aDyFq/jiM= X-Virus-Scanned: by Hostpark/NetZone Mailprotection at hostpark.net Received: from mail.hostpark.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail1.hostpark.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10224) with ESMTP id qjyDv9ucNSKm for <73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 29 Oct 2024 16:21:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (prime256v1) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.hostpark.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5EA9516400 for <73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 29 Oct 2024 16:21:58 +0100 (CET) From: Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@HIDDEN> To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2024 16:21:57 +0100 Message-ID: <87ed3zndd6.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hello all, It is very disappointing that you have chosen to deprecate if-let and when-let in such a rushed manner. The same was done and reverted in 2018, and many of the same actors are involved this time around. I am surprised that you would make the same unforced error again. Reading through this and past conversations it is clear that there is no consensus what the ultimate goal is. But as far as I can tell, few, if any, are fully satisfied with the current (30.0.*) situation. There also seems to be agreement that unfortunate mistakes were made in the past, which limits our options now. This could have been prevented if more people (including non-debbugs and non-emacs-devel regulars) were given a chance to think about the problem and time to articulate their concerns and proposals, before facts were created. Or even if the people who did take part in past conversations had spend more time actually talking things through. The same could have been done every time the dissatisfying state of the foo-let forms was brought up again, but instead new facts were rushed at every turn. Without stopping this destructive pattern, you won't be able to fix this mess. My short-term proposal is this: - Revert the depredations and remove the news entry. Even if you later decide to go through with the deprecation after all, the "damage" done by doing, reverting and redoing a few lines is minimal. (Even so, maybe discuss it for a few days before reverting.) This would have the benefit of not needlessly alienating those package authors who currently use foo-let and would like to keep doing so, if the ultimate decision is to not go through with the deprecation after all. - Do NOT revert the changes from using foo-let to using foo-let* in Emacs itself. You might end up deciding to go through with the deprecation after all, in which case it would be unfortunate to switch thousands of lines back and forth. - Re-read past conversations. Think about what *your* ideal solutions would be (think big here). Think about what your best *feasible* solutions would be. Think about what compromises you would be willing to make. Think about what compromises you would *not* willing to make, and articulate why. Think about what others have said, and what compromises they would have to make to satisfy your position and those of others. Try to understand where they are coming from. You do not have to *agree* with their motivations, to appreciate how severe the concessions are, they would have to make to *them*, to agree to your idea of the best feasible solution and your idea of an acceptable compromise. Think in particular about whether achieving your goal/compromise, would require them to roll over and admit defeat. Consider whether sticking to the current (30.0.*) status quo, might after all be the best *compromise* we could possibly reach. - Do not have this conversation just among yourselves. Any change you make here is going to affect *many* packages and their authors and users. Actively involve the affected community. Reach out on several channels, and give people time to think about the problem and share their thoughts. I am talking months here, not weeks or even days. - In addition to thinking about the state you want to reach eventually, also think about the transition process. Should it be done in several steps, and if so, what would the consequences for package authors be? Could it be done in a way that does not force package authors to change their code multiple times? Could a variable similar in spirit to lexical-binding be a viable option? - If you think that this proposal is over the top, try to consider it from the perspective of the maintainers of external packages. Take the history of this whole saga into account. Realize that there are people who have been burned by this before and who will be upset if being forced to change their packages again, maybe in a way they see as a step backward. Even if you decide that those who disagree with you are simply wrong and/or lack good taste, consider whether it is worth alienating people over this. To help kick start an informed decision finding process I have searched the Emacsmirror (a superset of GNU ELPA + NonGNU ELPA + MELPA) for these forms: | grep pattern | hits | |---------------------+------| | "(if-let\( \|$\)" | 1853 | | "(if-let\*" | 422 | | "(when-let\( \|$\)" | 4260 | | "(when-let\*" | 1162 | | "(and-let\*" | 288 | Best regards, Jonas
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for
when-let*?
In-Reply-To: <87iktcuy5u.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Mon, 28
Oct 2024 14:58:37 +0100")
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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:32:12 -0400
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>> I'll let you guess where I stand w.r.t to naming of `when-let` vs
>> `when-let*`, based on the fact that I originally implemented `dlet` with
>> the semantics of `let*`. =F0=9F=99=82
>
> Your timing of mentioning such things still has an epsilon of room for
> improvement.
FWIW, in my ideal world, `let` would have the semantics of the current
`let*`, and for those few cases where we do want the "parallel"
semantics, we'd have a special `let-parallel` or something.
But this is not really an option at this point.
For that same reason, while I'd prefer the `when-let` name with the
`when-let*` semantics, I think this won't fly. Just as happened with
`dlet` it would be changed in due time either by adding a `*` or by
changing the semantics.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2024 13:58:32 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 28 09:58:32 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54244 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t5QGO-0001uB-Eb for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 09:58:32 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:60309) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t5QGM-0001tx-R9 for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 09:58:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1730123861; x=1730728661; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=P6i4u37hIzRcMfZHZx9FY6b5wqJJGKeLK6JLD1M1sGg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=gKNQqO6fGPU81YgdseQAS60z97ynKrAR7a/A4zJTwTeSk2jdkuoN6a7x6RG9cJ+o vpwBZkLAKcc7P5wDwiBItumMpMORnXV2Xk9PaW/naHoowhYlZQ79wDqaQA0M15qcs F7gDXD4b3hFC8Nri43XDyn4Y/PCpyaBu2514ZweCYslJit/CQfIUnU8nRlRv7JTMY tPHknmzybDUbvliETLUkaHBrrfdkcEIMyumyZ4pGHieqVm6nYZqD2l6gflqmp1rGx QaKvCj4XRmcM3msV9AjpLcPyP/lrNMQ7/Ixe2jZaac82WgtgVINIC4J7y5OeZ4XGQ lxnkpmftkuhbfW0jjQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mmyr7-1tlOqY00hz-00eLyB; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 14:57:41 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <jwvr081pqid.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 10:41:13 -0400") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr081pqid.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 14:58:37 +0100 Message-ID: <87iktcuy5u.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:/t+nLiccm9NgNgnxDzPSpgoBiR3snp4Wot0DHBFV9ilgMPmIv0n Xg6KqwxF4RjnsfMSCP1lSdQfmP7cXWjvtvJXAVwswqK+SiO9ARRjlPQfScwT6XJ/LQyAxd6 iHDECkbw+tlWNWpsCb4InDupEVuBdedHKP/mxZ5Kfno8ju/Ej2GtTygnQbKl/Adw6DzQbD8 /4dtQEd9mRdqL57861YuA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:c3FTbe9KPvY=;bVton2DSQDbcJ3+tJ0DGKZBKIhf LA6oAqWQ9CnRaR4T3OBVX4uEeKMDrhdgXeXe6TB3wG7Zfwf0jx6EsEXVYYQpvcgDH7hOIS2q7 oeEOCbyIx9A91PO4P5/NWKP0UIS0QUswZAqTJUJXU2qVCxWbW057h+F/OxzgiQyyNRlw2QdII wBj4T6yiRBQvJCQxQ57I3ePKocfkVSa8EWIVKrQipuTCKRqElXpazKlZ4ko/WFWVCBiTHGwym QtS+TNo33o0m9d7Cr74++jWaDo0AEo9mfT9cyueq7/0I1tHF9tVw7ZOwsqPZNcolBBvm46P5v VbnLJafBqKYYDKe4LZs3iljIuOJuIbnuDbSB72Wav7rOkRm2YypSUG9OP7B8Fmk5gpLdcbnIE N2z7TOkYwVOic1o6FN0ryNNwcJbnBgnMuN0Kpd9sUHdR5/mcTPAlJXUauQ1pbT+whuOWBEv0W qpU40gtnB58cTi5TDpprgt7NkUeqBQ0gA/xgvpLQqp7yYGz/uexarMMCELIEAMaZAK1gSlAbF 4Rm/R7ysVz98u6nsQMhjLp7mfCz5xPnmedPRqa7b6RO3Lt26Qtgxz3TxqsPVa8EjhoCVd+v2T P+N4xwULWl4VWQvKwyYMZo7Xlo2DcS/XOkOSVEUNsMWIZ1dWhCWrJundaWYSjjmiSunZITQxQ 2patjRZtNSJzvnZp9kMYsmRXJfVe56dLrtPGBQy+LOkIyWSD0NIUDTtbCXGXK+bqSyriFuTAw PM/rrvbDYRx1oUfsCEhbJefpVFK9RcGgWKlFukCAHZB4cbCkmMC6MULcNmNrnYdvd9/ZBIgWA hKs1exJ3cCHUGb94140G+vE5A6HbNH9vY4XBSdopI57LQ= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > The only natural semantics for something like when-let is the > "sequential" bindings of `let*`. The `let` and `letrec` semantics are > "unnatural" here, so we should have only the `let*` semantics. I do not see an if-let where condition testing return values are referenced in THEN, but conditions are independent and exchangeable, as necessarily unnatural. Even when the implementation: > [...] to something like: > > (when-let* ((t1 (fooa)) > (t2 (foob)) > ...) > (let ((a t1) > (b t2) > ...) > (bar))) would not be as straightforward as for `if-let*'. > So coders who "simplify" `when-let*` to `when-let` when the * version is > not needed, would in reality just pessimize their code. The other side is readability, like for `let' vs. `let*'. In my experience condition not too seldom are independent from each other. I would be able to make that explicit for the human reader. But if all of you guys don't like the idea then ...ok, so it be. > I'll let you guess where I stand w.r.t to naming of `when-let` vs > `when-let*`, based on the fact that I originally implemented `dlet` with > the semantics of `let*`. =F0=9F=99=82 Your timing of mentioning such things still has an epsilon of room for improvement. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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In-Reply-To: <87o7358yu4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Albinus's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 14:22:43 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7358yu4.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:39:11 +0100 Message-ID: <87y128in28.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:WeDoYdu2KcO+u5v+MgqXVMXmmwBDugr11IQJZ6YOnTXFtkH4sLI k/84g7fzBG7W5MX5S6Aju7oPBdD1yHHg92Or9+8P6seU/bTyVibGx1FELmNfkGRPSJeB+7+ TWZfxw/7L3Jmh/sHjY1OH8mTjaorMErJS3+fAXLA+mZFvFO4XxMwxP8tmmWdrfz/jsCrLBR BnoaSHPtxt2Grb+4AZUmA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:QoOZxlwoul8=;18xeD2lccPkqNyXikoy9Fzyr5a4 fcSfChZ/K9OE6TqPTyTEVpdK5l8WOJXrFX2h4C0+Xs3I56NL82lQ8TQlH2Q/bCckrHsLC6RPj 3gSLPx7BlSG8JqA4yyubJcJIxwqmVk4817B3r1wWX/479nHaVxMfYZDTtA7bhcbrJ12WSEcwp MokVx81s3ybMgbr4UQUCAXUNwOKiwa4DEwd+q5Yp7d4Vz6ZMZjLyjZVzKIsOoU1q3VsOlHd9A Y7lyhObtJSUJ/aT1WUxNwak789/0YLoUD727AZ+SUQzQchMTZmwZQt1hUJo6/QDcCxtm5boBf 7Uu1vJ9ojdyqijzzMu1vcZgwUQ3HZcrkchEb/SRbw0fl80qPJP/qbcKyTGTDHEg1uUSjLGQbD FjYGCUE8E/MkR9hQrvEbqNENDe7WfVE4mYYC7HGpAm6aJQTnIgAyOyUi+2AdnQmNvJnu+fTqf fBJ4o9zGajskbI43kUD0NOeCxv8x/eqx2I7RZqOcBbVOQnTX5biJKdKWjsGhhC3hBAqqSuMRc wKJIL0tdyL9MXEVqnmExvnq0LtNhKCi169RD1IYR22hJwvjjEqmyxH20a9abd8hjwT17UTvM+ lGExXIO1TlkxtgqKeaFQtsZZ5JSIYJGoZPpESBIqM2344u+7GoAsKZjTSHMndgmlrsLmwj+Rc C3Jkhg2Z7ScC023ShR3Odse7SBhS80TIjWc2lbiWdT4fK7LyRUqiYOcSgx/0HpmgBYTyytbZD vOs4dJP3KSsOQAOxB3PpPMPpXHcYxHUt4AOL7Z7YLetrNP8TrFir6bVJu+XOZ5wr39GqTEUxA WOmCjjNaScCGFnr8MziynLqA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > But you're too late. The whole codebase has been changed already, and > this is much more but an annpyance. I don't see a glaring reason to > revert this. This has never been my intention, Michael. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2024 09:39:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 28 05:39:14 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52553 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t5MDS-0006Jo-0u for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 05:39:14 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:39832) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t5MDN-0006Jd-5A for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 05:39:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t5MCm-0002m3-Hh for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 05:38:32 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t5MCl-0001BI-30 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 05:38:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1730108292; x=1730713092; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=s13W8pmjC1eXpE33QHw8SQL6dvfI1PLe3eGhsHF56oI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=BP0a7LbrXEmuwaz+s/HG9fF0tr6Ihnk6Nmubzg/JBQonMPH2mw6Sn+KOJAcQzrUn ViJQg8zfdxbGcgna8JGQYe/OM8M+cBf9oZUv2OmRMGmG4MA/XScdxCvfwyMmxHKNU wjiNXXkfOCQgyLAWnW6BfJ7PE8q3sosHaFD6gJ2Ox4s4IQBzmd+M5Yc2wkINsFeXx dkbqVTTZWM7mgCoN6Ta3XRAgmsjDufy8HGPXbrzVf3UK2m8oiyo/YQLnNTGLxH1Jl YFMxG+FELH3h4SemcAlKAhM3ULlz+LFlMAJCoJAnsxYXIjeauM9se9eqnJmNeb73o I3JxWuROI57ux+TX5w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N3ouq-1u53XY3Xd2-00yQY2; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:38:12 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87o7358yu4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Albinus's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 14:22:43 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7358yu4.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:39:11 +0100 Message-ID: <87y128in28.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:WeDoYdu2KcO+u5v+MgqXVMXmmwBDugr11IQJZ6YOnTXFtkH4sLI k/84g7fzBG7W5MX5S6Aju7oPBdD1yHHg92Or9+8P6seU/bTyVibGx1FELmNfkGRPSJeB+7+ TWZfxw/7L3Jmh/sHjY1OH8mTjaorMErJS3+fAXLA+mZFvFO4XxMwxP8tmmWdrfz/jsCrLBR BnoaSHPtxt2Grb+4AZUmA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:QoOZxlwoul8=;18xeD2lccPkqNyXikoy9Fzyr5a4 fcSfChZ/K9OE6TqPTyTEVpdK5l8WOJXrFX2h4C0+Xs3I56NL82lQ8TQlH2Q/bCckrHsLC6RPj 3gSLPx7BlSG8JqA4yyubJcJIxwqmVk4817B3r1wWX/479nHaVxMfYZDTtA7bhcbrJ12WSEcwp MokVx81s3ybMgbr4UQUCAXUNwOKiwa4DEwd+q5Yp7d4Vz6ZMZjLyjZVzKIsOoU1q3VsOlHd9A Y7lyhObtJSUJ/aT1WUxNwak789/0YLoUD727AZ+SUQzQchMTZmwZQt1hUJo6/QDcCxtm5boBf 7Uu1vJ9ojdyqijzzMu1vcZgwUQ3HZcrkchEb/SRbw0fl80qPJP/qbcKyTGTDHEg1uUSjLGQbD FjYGCUE8E/MkR9hQrvEbqNENDe7WfVE4mYYC7HGpAm6aJQTnIgAyOyUi+2AdnQmNvJnu+fTqf fBJ4o9zGajskbI43kUD0NOeCxv8x/eqx2I7RZqOcBbVOQnTX5biJKdKWjsGhhC3hBAqqSuMRc wKJIL0tdyL9MXEVqnmExvnq0LtNhKCi169RD1IYR22hJwvjjEqmyxH20a9abd8hjwT17UTvM+ lGExXIO1TlkxtgqKeaFQtsZZ5JSIYJGoZPpESBIqM2344u+7GoAsKZjTSHMndgmlrsLmwj+Rc C3Jkhg2Z7ScC023ShR3Odse7SBhS80TIjWc2lbiWdT4fK7LyRUqiYOcSgx/0HpmgBYTyytbZD vOs4dJP3KSsOQAOxB3PpPMPpXHcYxHUt4AOL7Z7YLetrNP8TrFir6bVJu+XOZ5wr39GqTEUxA WOmCjjNaScCGFnr8MziynLqA== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.14; envelope-from=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > But you're too late. The whole codebase has been changed already, and > this is much more but an annpyance. I don't see a glaring reason to > revert this. This has never been my intention, Michael. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2024 03:20:09 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 23:20:09 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49610 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t5GIb-0000iw-57 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 23:20:09 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:42216) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t5GIZ-0000ig-66 for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 23:20:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=DJYSqmEa9itZr+XxA75UDepW6ydY5KrYOh/h/q1lmJaRd7zvWY3o7NGqG06BYG0+8tP/fc1HJ4hAsje7zGxs1c0V3dC1MxVU5fqk5Gyi+2x9t9sleE9Ky2uklTKWBGsOxnHyjtygjj5z8cd5QmoJp3VMVxnkH2PkU2hQdvSmqlSLuoCLMcyN7CJYlF5aLbjsAnoIg5TUheM/OB4uGY5/17eV01puclA6kUIgB3KYKdIa7qTe55KS1DYpuK1Ru4uY9dzUPTsKUtkzTytQXEpuiuPf/opq8c5Yn7xuC5QG9yFCYM679eW/CKE0iiBNSzGoVkGFhR/YyQAWPVoCgebVxw==; s=purelymail2; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=vjRTx3SmczNDkIaNqhMEk8SkCQtc7gKkAIDQCkbmvpg=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=g51kfFmEyZJXx9jwNg3pLob72VO1baYpukMYTyJ5WXTisDWkXQFrWH1z7K+Gm7btfkLXsWLnIKw8BxdwmWqXXc1756PSfUrToxZQagmdw9CAE0bFUTfMRvH6IzL0zuY17YzB1h+i8TCZzIObWuqyZWr9o9gWYB/+xFwsjwAB3BalxBRPahp/v66wD8vkyUbfo4s57toPQfEiBbijwVTOvRfXUNz03kUuANaiSFnw6pv+8MvPCs70QojEutdUWhg8qoEWlF2kLpUujs/d1e5VukMhtFPlBd0AKHgh6QuHSAlzNRbMPIhEp9bGLBMmvPIPoA3hPGO8KP92dD5w6dP/uA==; s=purelymail2; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=vjRTx3SmczNDkIaNqhMEk8SkCQtc7gKkAIDQCkbmvpg=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id -606555756; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Mon, 28 Oct 2024 03:19:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 536B47EE7D8; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 11:19:21 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Howard Melman <hmelman@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <lywmhtgehg.fsf@HIDDEN> (Howard Melman's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:15:07 -0400") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <lywmhtgehg.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 11:19:21 +0800 Message-ID: <87o734kj7q.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Sun 27 Oct 2024 at 10:15pm -04, Howard Melman wrote: > Michael Heerdegen <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: >> >>> retitle 73853 Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? >>> thanks >> >> Thanks for the fine summary. >> >>> - I'd like to go ahead and install a patch marking when-let and if-let >>> as obsolete, unless Michael is keen to be the one to do it as the >>> initiator of the previous effort >> >> He is not, feel free to go ahead when there are no objections from >> others. > > I don't know if it's changed since, but in my Emacs 29.1 > elisp manual, only the non-starred versions are documented. Yes, this is fixed for Emacs 30. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2024 02:15:59 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 22:15:59 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48978 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t5FIV-0005si-3n for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:15:59 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:56142) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1t5FIT-0005sX-3B for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:15:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1t5FHt-0007FR-65 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:15:21 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1t5FHq-0000WJ-E0 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:15:20 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1t5FHm-000411-DN for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 28 Oct 2024 03:15:14 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Howard Melman <hmelman@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:15:07 -0400 Message-ID: <lywmhtgehg.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:mL1wx0Vt/up4fn3uw7FsOwwpbeA= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 3 X-Spam_score: 0.3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) Michael Heerdegen <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: > >> retitle 73853 Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? >> thanks > > Thanks for the fine summary. > >> - I'd like to go ahead and install a patch marking when-let and if-let >> as obsolete, unless Michael is keen to be the one to do it as the >> initiator of the previous effort > > He is not, feel free to go ahead when there are no objections from > others. I don't know if it's changed since, but in my Emacs 29.1 elisp manual, only the non-starred versions are documented. -- Howard
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas
<stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym
for when-let*?
Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a
synonym for when-let*?
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Cc: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>,
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> (if-let ((a (does-an-a-exist?-then-return-it)))
> (use a)
> (do-something-else))
Is that the same as this?
(let ((a (does-an-a-exist?-then-return-it)))
(if a (use a) (do-something-else)))
> (and-let* ((a (an-a-exists))
> (b (b-depending-on-a-also-exists)))
> (test-using a b))
Is that the same as this?
(let* ((a (an-a-exists))
(b (b-depending-on-a-also-exists)))
(and a b (test-using a b)))
or this?
(let* ((a (an-a-exists))
(b (and a (b-depending-on-a-also-exists))))
(and b (test-using a b)))
or something else?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.
Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 14:42:02 +0000
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for
when-let*?
In-Reply-To: <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 27
Oct 2024 10:16:00 +0100")
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> Thinking the first example further we could introduce parallel versions
> and name them `if-let', `when-let' and `and-let'. They would be really
> analogue to `let' with respect to binding list semantics - compared to
> the non-parallel counterparts `if-let*' that are what we have now.
>
> ATM this idea looks appealing to me as a final goal.
The only natural semantics for something like when-let is the
"sequential" bindings of `let*`. The `let` and `letrec` semantics are
"unnatural" here, so we should have only the `let*` semantics.
The implementation of a `when-let` that has a binding semantics like
that of `let` rather than `let*` would have to macroexpand
(when-let ((a (fooa))
(b (foob))
...)
(bar))
to something like:
(when-let* ((t1 (fooa))
(t2 (foob))
...)
(let ((a t1)
(b t2)
...)
(bar)))
So coders who "simplify" `when-let*` to `when-let` when the * version is
not needed, would in reality just pessimize their code.
I'll let you guess where I stand w.r.t to naming of `when-let` vs
`when-let*`, based on the fact that I originally implemented `dlet` with
the semantics of `let*`. =F0=9F=99=82
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 13:23:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 09:23:34 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44268 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t53Ez-00060f-Ln for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 09:23:33 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:57781) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t53Ex-000601-Ns for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 09:23:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1730035365; x=1730640165; i=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; bh=JfCiP4mpQIRTYcCuaut00caOc6/nvDAEECevGcip8oc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=FFTPBH8o6jMrnkpiKb4q5boI1WVg+8pJkWdIxIwjWb+HPXmOZbNA/Cdpd8QGf82+ JNxcH6KqD+8iMAUhG4dF1id5RrvHg4Z/X6UNDo+Uod8JtRASEdc8b6IbSxks0IGUj b2KyYHFO2CaXJkIVGqVdGkSp2ZPLRLBbJKPagJGeSaL76YDprr3wi41RZaNPYZeig qKEPUYFVJh4I+dYEMElGX8S3I/KOUqXQH0OjZFf8b0fcG6Gsn9r8W/emxtXbRgp7i 2bqYaiMO1cR/MaNB6Np574/xjiCm4efGfBzs/g2z1a/o6GqmiSxlo/8+Zn1qdx94C pTZYoQ6okgX0a4h8lg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.38.155]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M42jK-1t53ED2xLE-005qBk; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 14:22:45 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 13:28:57 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 14:22:43 +0100 Message-ID: <87o7358yu4.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:u02MjOc4k/cb/NgOOG1+uYHhNDmr/m1kjTkqTykGTbEi/FmnFrQ BGvTa1YHi0ZNkTVW8V7I4zQXiA+KmdcwTnvLUvOQLZ10T+EKhGmQkl0H+V7J3JRJuwlmWtj S/IUsTDRuOWOR2pb/3nY9aqTOYHAyDAgmY9eKh4No5WbVBlJj2fraDwsIdsPhL3CPoFtQWN JmVG5nUmWDBxjlPM/5kJA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:cWonCttWQNY=;7jGHwH8lqg0GEuBP1JJVAFzdSPe j8Mc0QcjqCH8rAV2WGqMEeRsqRELvLE0lBwrlSyM4z9fbYT+bt54ywM5zaGR5iPplvw3rPsVA ddeTtYfkg8w/eNRrt+NTe4ZWVtsTE3+PlQyZSxu9I+9aEV5k8WHDccpoRVP0nK4NA7Pzmdvkn S4TJdsXUpT9YN09bdXXTPX+VwFHdVvus3nfOZmhp8pmEfEZJ7RfaPv6VmRAVrXaW91S/geJzp tdNfyvJAV2JFxQdobxqSuHMzXTumnfggPNomzbhqSuky2TNP3aXGQl5A8OcAdApPOY/Fs3s4S ludNyJ8hfUCVZ19QZur4HUYK6NRASELF9y/HZE2l1jpITxvvYc8//88k+1E9nwwkFhVIe+FO4 +qlpcOI87kvVU9qFZzlGbr6myLrTdtY6HeHLXndU4AJYKptuHWKTIiklEfTh28VJMyb8o4M3L S8vlc/HkhRJuR/zgdPBb5MYN8rwgZOc+SORkL0nhMZam5uGZfgBNeqENIqECBZ7wPE0pveJF3 hxzr8JqlZ7q5kBDEslOQqtZV85cDxR1J5PgLjgNRnjqYv+ZI73H90H3lJguTsH2sdWVdk9BSp MCP9NbvTblkacpeFtAZed4kn/LH5FErFAKrrkLyxGsGu2k9bhZskoVPw7tQuPeO6w5F3BwJgn /KnVGADerPgfvgmGXbdsU+hvdahh4eUVzvUzUlOxiFd4bvC+2aSJ8w4jvwPh+zuEeqm+2fPaG 0tpUosU5zKYjHLWpQS6KlMwLexRnc7B05MGy3JD8iWb4t4p7W2fCl5rODrC0ayAG/F9AB9Tn3 vlpSRhwwXyK/eRlCN5V8lmeQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Michael. >> I'm not impatient, other people are. Blaming (for example) Tramp for >> the compilation warnings in master. > > If you are not impatient: please explain why you are sure that this will > not pop up in, say 18 months, again. Or why it is better to handle this > corner issue in 7 steps spread over an quarter of a century. I don't know whether this happens. But I buy the reasoning, that if-let* and when-let* are closed to let*, given the semantics. > Sorry for the sarcasm, but I miss the weighing up in what you say. Only > pointing to annoyances counts but doesn't convince me that one solution > is better than the other. But you're too late. The whole codebase has been changed already, and this is much more but an annpyance. I don't see a glaring reason to revert this. > Michael. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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In-Reply-To: <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 13:28:57 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 14:22:43 +0100 Message-ID: <87o7358yu4.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:u02MjOc4k/cb/NgOOG1+uYHhNDmr/m1kjTkqTykGTbEi/FmnFrQ BGvTa1YHi0ZNkTVW8V7I4zQXiA+KmdcwTnvLUvOQLZ10T+EKhGmQkl0H+V7J3JRJuwlmWtj S/IUsTDRuOWOR2pb/3nY9aqTOYHAyDAgmY9eKh4No5WbVBlJj2fraDwsIdsPhL3CPoFtQWN JmVG5nUmWDBxjlPM/5kJA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:cWonCttWQNY=;7jGHwH8lqg0GEuBP1JJVAFzdSPe j8Mc0QcjqCH8rAV2WGqMEeRsqRELvLE0lBwrlSyM4z9fbYT+bt54ywM5zaGR5iPplvw3rPsVA ddeTtYfkg8w/eNRrt+NTe4ZWVtsTE3+PlQyZSxu9I+9aEV5k8WHDccpoRVP0nK4NA7Pzmdvkn S4TJdsXUpT9YN09bdXXTPX+VwFHdVvus3nfOZmhp8pmEfEZJ7RfaPv6VmRAVrXaW91S/geJzp tdNfyvJAV2JFxQdobxqSuHMzXTumnfggPNomzbhqSuky2TNP3aXGQl5A8OcAdApPOY/Fs3s4S ludNyJ8hfUCVZ19QZur4HUYK6NRASELF9y/HZE2l1jpITxvvYc8//88k+1E9nwwkFhVIe+FO4 +qlpcOI87kvVU9qFZzlGbr6myLrTdtY6HeHLXndU4AJYKptuHWKTIiklEfTh28VJMyb8o4M3L S8vlc/HkhRJuR/zgdPBb5MYN8rwgZOc+SORkL0nhMZam5uGZfgBNeqENIqECBZ7wPE0pveJF3 hxzr8JqlZ7q5kBDEslOQqtZV85cDxR1J5PgLjgNRnjqYv+ZI73H90H3lJguTsH2sdWVdk9BSp MCP9NbvTblkacpeFtAZed4kn/LH5FErFAKrrkLyxGsGu2k9bhZskoVPw7tQuPeO6w5F3BwJgn /KnVGADerPgfvgmGXbdsU+hvdahh4eUVzvUzUlOxiFd4bvC+2aSJ8w4jvwPh+zuEeqm+2fPaG 0tpUosU5zKYjHLWpQS6KlMwLexRnc7B05MGy3JD8iWb4t4p7W2fCl5rODrC0ayAG/F9AB9Tn3 vlpSRhwwXyK/eRlCN5V8lmeQ== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.19; envelope-from=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Michael. >> I'm not impatient, other people are. Blaming (for example) Tramp for >> the compilation warnings in master. > > If you are not impatient: please explain why you are sure that this will > not pop up in, say 18 months, again. Or why it is better to handle this > corner issue in 7 steps spread over an quarter of a century. I don't know whether this happens. But I buy the reasoning, that if-let* and when-let* are closed to let*, given the semantics. > Sorry for the sarcasm, but I miss the weighing up in what you say. Only > pointing to annoyances counts but doesn't convince me that one solution > is better than the other. But you're too late. The whole codebase has been changed already, and this is much more but an annpyance. I don't see a glaring reason to revert this. > Michael. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 13:11:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 09:11:13 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44255 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t5333-0005UR-AA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 09:11:13 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:47098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t5330-0005U1-56 for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 09:11:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=TSnlCTYC+MOWLoxeg+mm73ECYxiXNMF9mH953iXVraVl8rq3j05Wf0/bsaHYmMsd26ilXPSpZHi1vKuFZfdaFGJY6DBP3jTCOzt13EjpuZxT6bqj2supIE1blYnv/EWhfTOvrSwCG4uXO3BxXCXcLdIZxfdz2ESJ3uHlNVEXB7pxWQ+YOTdLOHUmYL/DqUN355yaTS2yaq9f+USFkkFhix5+RnZ9Vw3V3g0TaUA/P+/MtPJgqOk131+u+mQZ04rTB0yJUaUUg5GBnkejpzi+vWmDOswsXJs+EboBLqr26F50JpYfmn0mTZ7kCnZUrBwrYvLwoJoqbq372ZDRr4VEeg==; s=purelymail2; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=WFxdHxp8d89CCmdwKGOiVbzgx6xpK1H/XlWf72xDsnM=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=N/RN9lgvYcL2PxdnYxACg40tn8fON1Yn6wICurMoM9A/I186hWF4CWHO14ZJzsZkiRzDEfJ0I+GM7YJAEIYEE+K6e5hQpUms87ZikEQlNFB9Myp2BNNIaARhV8Q69A6/Aq9XFka7l2mFod9Bqe7hZHqedqQLj9U6m+z6uDkA0j4z7nzGW2GLxfhCYwGRwdpgAZNY7xGyI4wV4FpkYQjwyqtzgyF6X9tWBMANVg3ZzqliMXVsYIzRwMLjbanm6lnOGmEKm6Ck61UA/UGG2RuIOhm1a9mj31BJpOn4Wn5psIAPzowH6dWNOPWAVk/rRFpvlZwOYEirXfKX8mPvSZ7+JQ==; s=purelymail2; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=WFxdHxp8d89CCmdwKGOiVbzgx6xpK1H/XlWf72xDsnM=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id 1314489415; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Sun, 27 Oct 2024 13:10:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 05CB97EE5EA; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 21:10:23 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 13:28:57 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 21:10:22 +0800 Message-ID: <87iktdlmip.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Sun 27 Oct 2024 at 01:28pm +01, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I'm not impatient, other people are. Blaming (for example) Tramp for >> the compilation warnings in master. > > If you are not impatient: please explain why you are sure that this will > not pop up in, say 18 months, again. Or why it is better to handle this > corner issue in 7 steps spread over an quarter of a century. > > Sorry for the sarcasm, but I miss the weighing up in what you say. Only > pointing to annoyances counts but doesn't convince me that one solution > is better than the other. I don't think this is going to come up again -- or, at least, if someone brings it up, it will not require us to take any action, except possibly documentation improvements. I admire your desire to Do It Right, but the Right Thing does not exist in a vacuum -- in particular, it is constrained by what was done before. The right thing here is not to try to reuse these names, because of the particular way in which they were used before. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 12:28:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 08:28:51 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44192 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t52O3-0003V9-3I for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 08:28:51 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:34269) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t52O0-0003Ut-J2 for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 08:28:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1730032081; x=1730636881; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=imBjTssmyLEYOeQNSQ8KtKXKX5R4XxbTeQXLDviWL1Q=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=UKdkGwZjkiAY+jPZ/5PXyH2m/vdnL4jlvlG9ofFtduW8/Wq2GJzrCqjw9hL/nG3Q pLdtk/OjlFSQtzfPNswJ4e8cW0RgrBiFuSNPJDtMf4RONXvdHNmaCkFCcARyNweH1 GiJeAQGqHfm47P+0mrercci7ZDcgQF/3Kev42bPeGYGKCFP0SPMd1aEAu9BU7fhZW IIU+If520mI+vwZCAGUmXuMbE186YUoB9o+m6PsXW6tPoUn8XemHoDZuzBInccpai 0A4BVRC4nygpLobRDTohGhb+sFJGHKjMTcxSJw3fJoMoryNC8NgpO7fn3ofVGeTiT lC+iMvfNWnSbjLmOpQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MgAJ8-1tW7WZ2YH8-00jVrJ; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 13:28:01 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Albinus's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:44:28 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 13:28:57 +0100 Message-ID: <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:og2NzCMmaFc1LvO2mkv2Cg56Y96r2unLHf7dNlzHhHaQh6fH7Qr IQ153pVpewcS5NnmGPtTcT+eAiFkxPzqernECCNmzyxIyXM0XNmIZMoFCJFGKwIs5L+Msi+ uqgiFiUb1gnuVf/pVaC0DDQbDizlOzAxiZ+LHC1YXEU2zZ5WMSbVvgQBbgsdZPZRp46Yo/f 5sCgRvxLd15Rks4huWtOg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:7n6I5nPlQF0=;0N8YZ0tu9PvnRQBn7GBaWhPUN6l cGuASxLc0JMn9RuX1lOpRyjlW2h/dNLvLw//U5EJFC7I84DKm1EK8YRsyW6IlDzSk6IBg4mcG y5Ph1WxkzVXrQlTPvf+oLMxw16xI1di9uExW48FhT33C74n6RrWDsX3lyoBqU0nvoRjcnUWMu EN8Nr1UgckzADTkwZ1qEZBXDcTXPCTmjxELIMVwQpkx+O39GhZh1Avw+n8ZdOAju9gBh6FJlV OEW0j9iUsGPwQTxLqv9MVZhSRaaSpoJSIOFAMvYKvRLFudhXN+ftjqbVF+rOo2PBb0IRv+91O 0TonolfntyR/LW6aVR3Ap68Jueqruku62+j9IWfSrRk716YepEeg7RizZxfP54ZKCMAwjX+oD 6DrVOBJHmZnmDt7GIcB9BVOkXiqdAVpH0VLlAdjjETE3oJ7QEs1FHf6gd0RT7Y8qdLG/maK13 z2aGEOCWPq+25EQZ3M1jYgHQprdAHfNI1vbMpc1VxavpOHBsfealn8Y6/1K32DtPy+We8443I XQsZEC6ansM0kd7ZnNbGRQD4tfKlPoG3OuX32e7KjjnbODfGK9xFcc4xGgkFO3mvJpYY5GpCQ tMUOGxgHMwYIdL4OHxIjAAmVDkbEeqVredfugWNXQtEBkTyGfXCrtOgn7hxQEZnf6gwrFz5GH 1Ze7rzxoAt8nvwOaoAKds9Bp0x+RmEf7BpKst7anpZ+/Pz+wkS3ptcdtg+TYge1wkaeSPwsaw 8lXXNy6EZ6X8voDwTKYWg6ceIYDISkdsFipLVA31GJXnth70lo/j3FHp6Q00POhj4WWybA2iZ Um7FGwjqPwAG1VSXL5RfSF9g== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm not impatient, other people are. Blaming (for example) Tramp for > the compilation warnings in master. If you are not impatient: please explain why you are sure that this will not pop up in, say 18 months, again. Or why it is better to handle this corner issue in 7 steps spread over an quarter of a century. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I miss the weighing up in what you say. Only pointing to annoyances counts but doesn't convince me that one solution is better than the other. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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In-Reply-To: <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Albinus's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:44:28 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 13:28:57 +0100 Message-ID: <87a5epk9va.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:og2NzCMmaFc1LvO2mkv2Cg56Y96r2unLHf7dNlzHhHaQh6fH7Qr IQ153pVpewcS5NnmGPtTcT+eAiFkxPzqernECCNmzyxIyXM0XNmIZMoFCJFGKwIs5L+Msi+ uqgiFiUb1gnuVf/pVaC0DDQbDizlOzAxiZ+LHC1YXEU2zZ5WMSbVvgQBbgsdZPZRp46Yo/f 5sCgRvxLd15Rks4huWtOg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:7n6I5nPlQF0=;0N8YZ0tu9PvnRQBn7GBaWhPUN6l cGuASxLc0JMn9RuX1lOpRyjlW2h/dNLvLw//U5EJFC7I84DKm1EK8YRsyW6IlDzSk6IBg4mcG y5Ph1WxkzVXrQlTPvf+oLMxw16xI1di9uExW48FhT33C74n6RrWDsX3lyoBqU0nvoRjcnUWMu EN8Nr1UgckzADTkwZ1qEZBXDcTXPCTmjxELIMVwQpkx+O39GhZh1Avw+n8ZdOAju9gBh6FJlV OEW0j9iUsGPwQTxLqv9MVZhSRaaSpoJSIOFAMvYKvRLFudhXN+ftjqbVF+rOo2PBb0IRv+91O 0TonolfntyR/LW6aVR3Ap68Jueqruku62+j9IWfSrRk716YepEeg7RizZxfP54ZKCMAwjX+oD 6DrVOBJHmZnmDt7GIcB9BVOkXiqdAVpH0VLlAdjjETE3oJ7QEs1FHf6gd0RT7Y8qdLG/maK13 z2aGEOCWPq+25EQZ3M1jYgHQprdAHfNI1vbMpc1VxavpOHBsfealn8Y6/1K32DtPy+We8443I XQsZEC6ansM0kd7ZnNbGRQD4tfKlPoG3OuX32e7KjjnbODfGK9xFcc4xGgkFO3mvJpYY5GpCQ tMUOGxgHMwYIdL4OHxIjAAmVDkbEeqVredfugWNXQtEBkTyGfXCrtOgn7hxQEZnf6gwrFz5GH 1Ze7rzxoAt8nvwOaoAKds9Bp0x+RmEf7BpKst7anpZ+/Pz+wkS3ptcdtg+TYge1wkaeSPwsaw 8lXXNy6EZ6X8voDwTKYWg6ceIYDISkdsFipLVA31GJXnth70lo/j3FHp6Q00POhj4WWybA2iZ Um7FGwjqPwAG1VSXL5RfSF9g== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.4; envelope-from=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm not impatient, other people are. Blaming (for example) Tramp for > the compilation warnings in master. If you are not impatient: please explain why you are sure that this will not pop up in, say 18 months, again. Or why it is better to handle this corner issue in 7 steps spread over an quarter of a century. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I miss the weighing up in what you say. Only pointing to annoyances counts but doesn't convince me that one solution is better than the other. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 11:50:33 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 07:50:33 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44144 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t51mz-0001jM-DM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:50:33 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:49955) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t51mx-0001j4-1q for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:50:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1730029790; x=1730634590; i=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; bh=jLJNl7SVeHfILCQncT6e47mY/q0nfmQjU2fxYJqdR34=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=SkTxn59VdnyMPj14IqO61tZB3ECDlq4OeOfIFy5rZNUFPup2uXkLH4x9dZVKS/k4 3XeRElgnyFMR9P0OLP8bHsz8TrkDlGW6s8bLeiYWR6v8FaVmavpudX91WfLvyXWD1 iKmjQn+etWl4OwgAMXGsrcPUiXmaCdKNRfGqfgyKAAJtESSngyaE+zPSGzx+6IMHq dVaD4MKtSd48N5FaeMWNjdoqAPu1HDhBJ6Tr+H/vfA5GCqN/iGMVkcxxFHoj07Os/ 0Nb1coFIIDezBnXXDEiH1w3Gu593q2Onergecpn1PY7k+ERUpV9fCfVc2zyFZ7uxk dlXxz5WKACOXs12arg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.38.155]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MLiCu-1tMh6V39HM-00V5BT; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:44:31 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:24:35 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:44:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8Ms4yzdQB4vOtIerT3XbS4Pj/qZL4HEC8cHu2P+cxqYePNGmHia zBsjOENIZqpXs5vTSYx1RMDfcvX1bXKWRPygR6vHEf+39XYgUBrBN2fGjjfcwk/BzyJNFe7 Qi1N+I3aahWOJc3dhxjU/hwKAPIZ8PFdeV+aj9kU9i2pUdnbB2eah+GrSGHDa7tkkTln6nA AKv1w81hTNcCQSySStwIg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:KHZ2ngkw1xg=;gaorhJCEAMI4b+XEurQbU+IfXxC 0HvU+QtT9iQP5+wI45I8Ey7a6cnUDnqiTmhJ9saNYomToUXHKQm7JJCbowBO1jS7fa2JaKaAZ DPkXLlOB1A2pJEDoN5S3hhxw9IxwvLg5tYpFoY/MhN8kWAL/i1LeFSzehbVpv2XyytGGzxMOY wVhK+/w6L9zZl1zicmODBxybAOK+h6NoALLqZxjd4SBONYKN7/KW2pEsWE+pw+aynb0KGaoaQ sM9S2L2SCjGXq1JveKJqhZhfxqB65RlAoLRa2JlKNwq9boYwwogDIdlaKx41m6vk8yGytP10G LmSfqGrF9AXg0ZFnvuUgZlUynAuOadczO8qh3E9+JCJ+8YVQzMMryR24HjI7zZjZe1A2qt8P1 vUjBk6WatN9PtVaakYz8aqlnk0N2HVPgO0MCZbRVWyC8PBNZ76J2io0xpqFxUL7cwmRq4J4Ka eVHD+ZRharBZwMhSeTFoUiCl3rKeTMfXZPBf5jkuSn7wA5RbtuQ/8yeoMJyJcstSiZvpDhCB2 CP9Ip+CA2mqAgrZKsO/XizJSgJLmyIoeTF0B+6ky15VUY5kWHXqA0G+kUQNlJr0QkFKq4Nkyu jUXDNigzQ5c1l2sMVRyC9ZKT0rz/5Fj+5KpfZcOtjVISlkNws3ZU7kXgpOztT+Bi+WyEuEIMI fUj87OqSSNIGlUG1g495bYWawdL01b9Ouo/hDvQP/Z96C4qUcnhM0CiU6ILEZyH/0nwtgh2xM xqswg9kBviVA+GegUvkSj+9HAr4PE/MCKiRHuox2F9z/a5grhHTQYGrWWC6g4YQ8sauAzXpXp zfLdHfdhmGtv++ghikflJiXg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Michael, > Let's please not get impatient, I'm not impatient, other people are. Blaming (for example) Tramp for the compilation warnings in master. > Michael. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 11:45:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 07:45:24 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44112 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t51i0-0001Rw-Al for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:45:24 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:44536) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t51hy-0001Rn-Q3 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:45:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t51hM-0000m6-Dq for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:44:45 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t51hJ-0005Bj-2G for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:44:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1730029471; x=1730634271; i=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; bh=jLJNl7SVeHfILCQncT6e47mY/q0nfmQjU2fxYJqdR34=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=O6qjhxlTbPWNoRwoqSQPUdwoZ+00Rnqu7eSNKGmqeHi5HRqVbh5LKso19H0hgAwj 5PCUTk2EhyBAIqtBP/V/T9gdvhzPt+cs2xpdO0WCfPvLmPrBFtGWhfgJ/3e77eE5k XcD0TKiOIq5Opt9VBVYA+DRdhr8bVqDqzF+s423xhqetcKrKUymLSCuRjKOFgFnq3 UsPbGaFGTKvdnRoCv75O6YOlau+53sc/bYXGg04fuItFON/SRIzulpKHayxY7WgGW 7rL7gS9ZKUIVi+RcanrR79wwm3kKlN6l4zlCzddjJsBWkj8hfQzi0TvMKfNcqwL4I /kJLsXdCH53PDp5ASA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.38.155]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MLiCu-1tMh6V39HM-00V5BT; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:44:31 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:24:35 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:44:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87wmht93dv.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8Ms4yzdQB4vOtIerT3XbS4Pj/qZL4HEC8cHu2P+cxqYePNGmHia zBsjOENIZqpXs5vTSYx1RMDfcvX1bXKWRPygR6vHEf+39XYgUBrBN2fGjjfcwk/BzyJNFe7 Qi1N+I3aahWOJc3dhxjU/hwKAPIZ8PFdeV+aj9kU9i2pUdnbB2eah+GrSGHDa7tkkTln6nA AKv1w81hTNcCQSySStwIg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:s9iHMEUDoX4=;AX3pcULe8oxLZR2i3GHIv8vHg8L ainCQtyjoTUEQUMtJzuA5nOWdm13Mh+7izqgv+d+3TW1/2qiCivERvBgc1C84IXspKvzDkbHi tMb4qs0o8syoJrrkug8TRiuMlLtFtl8jTh7913SLHzNWRfze4pyjcJOkmn4xIIy+MnNpPLLuY HrYCDmatHSCdz+UHnyKhjPhVBjdxrJeUJRDP+7yEcA4q7eaG/qOhSnuKiJFVoDdh/7E/zQfHD tbmnE+1Q92tu1faouW1dPV+ke6TC38/6DRVojgYg/Cf95bWG3fL9+cp2GEEQVDW/S9A0kpPYr zCyxiJSd4Jl2KW8coX7iuzfOF+yfASHF9UDGWGsmT8ESUMA2VDMs39rcZcjXe1fz+iEKhjVZ8 ZlK3fKxTs4D3OkxXWTSwVkVFKPAIpRpyJnTiZOJsykyeMQwnk+6+xE3R5sphWHWPwa1UrPkvs 6b4/ob7cJmGnMVIh3Qkxt7i3bvC4XXAoxdwV53oj9x3ZY8aWnBUxTEs3PRdfmM9wgDDWG7lqz +TKF22UzLLjskXLIsZuWZajcfD6CB93Xn1vSz97g+HncLBi2psADqxg1uk381W5cR1v6r3tIT 3WGMoonjvWPiHqK1OEwljtOf3NWl0bNtx0UR6FnjlPY4srmfsMC7+Zv2NVH+xAG9q5lF3GjwZ 5oeNjszja2YRX+bFIDS83qBFATPDz23msCtXaPAGCmsBGXtCgNURD8HS9GC6cW3hpApf5yv8A 6yW+hKNVMkjH4T3C8n62ZbvPaSlU7j1cMframgbhHuRWYR1YwHftrXQtqwppCOU0Uc1hswomc tdyf/0GcNVWbA5qAUKmYxagg== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.21; envelope-from=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Michael, > Let's please not get impatient, I'm not impatient, other people are. Blaming (for example) Tramp for the compilation warnings in master. > Michael. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 11:33:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 07:33:47 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44088 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t51Wl-0000wZ-Bv for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:33:47 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:45044) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t51Wi-0000wK-Si for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:33:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=Y52xu6ZZciOfRGgr9Wg903ufz8EmCckNl15Zbh71POOpPhDRYv3D7+IWsdTC/SrRd//oUWrYZHTrWLMOS/4cL3Bbpuk5IUpaDs60qcd1vJ6JlEC4OJcUuf9KBPqtJQkyuo/RXkukvC9UXwNPdRYNlJWFZDCNDoVzzUGMOa8T5fE1TflCsIkjrFQ6+6CG9YPqq9Tbi8lZgo+SXtYitramyBMRAcn1CimrCKLdqNjesd5mcqiwaYb88rgTUM9D2SMwouNpj/ZKqhXlFOqPeeVC6kBfKvow64H8omzrzEnFGqRBt1iw9dRwOh0CT/FkSBGJnaMbakLB8o8RCvtd1CUC6w==; s=purelymail2; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=YmgfTHigpYpYmX5JUKx4yP4XVeAMGQX6S9H7nvoy15g=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=Dv/LRYXtByNgF+ahUGSVXXt4lo0M+tAhCAYN7hgjGrgVtELNQHvtthyOH2u+7CvGMjwjF7WuTrvxUe6u7imEQAFYJuzt6WxR72mzwTILy/kvhfn5f2Lvj9Ry+QrN6wPBX5RfgV79XfwpNx1wS6K35JSvEVw7E/giIgptfvVZRZyZNNkjinAh7OPJwo5su9JmJu/LJ6y3pSv/z2cP+GltE3skGX8zyofne9q16R57QwsPH68A9B5g9n0npobg2Ti0mQhz6qyEZWk1aRmEglhOCzi8DXg9hutp7JR9k6pWNNi+bQxK8kcO6pVUMBS4KkY1WxVCJ7lZOH9keEcPLKnBBQ==; s=purelymail2; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=YmgfTHigpYpYmX5JUKx4yP4XVeAMGQX6S9H7nvoy15g=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id -573945943; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:33:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D983B7E1EA4; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 19:32:56 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:24:35 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 19:32:56 +0800 Message-ID: <87msiplr13.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Sun 27 Oct 2024 at 12:24pm +01, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Please no more incompatibilities with older Emacsen except when >> absolutely necessary. It's already hard enough for packages developed >> outside the Emacs repo. > > My suggestion is not more incompatible than the current approach. I think it is, unfortunately, because it requires people to do more reading and thinking when updating their code. I find your idea interesting, but also not useful enough for the complexity that it entails -- both transition complexity, and inherent complexity. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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In-Reply-To: <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Albinus's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:12:58 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:24:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:s+yR5vKiZ1UK6Qc7qVeF107HWBs8vIYBRZGljojyV1z6OW5HPct yoDJ0HaOM8q+DjQphTbrv6ONJls5dct0mWchiA62incBhghVIQyTB7O0ovwrPdmSuF0c8GW JANp0j6L9jRih/8wxlEHWAv3eRKoCzoU34K0sgKOyr5PbBeu+RcatZldBDHO1dySILSMRAh K6U4M9NwR3hL7MqO6mtnw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:ao0A1bOc0Ug=;U3wgXlICUu+iZUxt18jivjYowmW jXZjs+s1eiECje8IzgErxQUOE601TkGaPQSqC4CoxlO7RkanX008SBYaffB7wq3kU9e2MUih+ SOIXDCHwY/VPUTInbKNbzShJvhMkMIQRqXCAM7hbECxpUt5L8ImP7jWl0hGVaCbrB5khqwHtl LwttHQI0apHS0L8+BsGDOgOqj1Sic8UMMEYbtXM9sMGj99b2iRmSIL08ZDBD+eVGb60JMItQ7 yZbYNAg+2SPX91Ml2VGQ+XbAnxrbB3nZjt/P0+EW3etlopG4CGPPj8/21piSRbepmplrNVjAo hSgpuFaRurack9fkZe7TLaiMHxdwkzt9pEeO5n2dDHeZrZawr8ABcAEvvzFQPTXEMl9cRic3D CKbpSSjafzu1zbvuI2f0a71c33vkqiXrHixeRoYIRbp3NBxYcRMhOEV4KUEtDPd18RI4P1mC0 vmbZpC7IK/X3SMERcIzYM8aczKBPgQuvcwboo3GvQ/511KF11PkK6xGtEr7K0ega1w1yHjKJZ MdsJ4aSkWYMEfyuKH1JICAV9U/Wz+5nfMeMDGr/aKamQUmaw7UsRW2jmNcwS22uflFg/VrWar cUHGMZp+79JZ56aa70dAGCDG7MXU0Ne0mGw2wMqWFdNrBNZY57hSviwKDgcPDT1h9FNKpd5Ev XEjtv0jGBYeqpC2Sj6bN85H66CpKjEex/4EVeWXZ/xh+NPDfFDsxNrEZL/WcPu4v84qbBKgAf RdZSBsA0W84fncQRpZ4YJiSsH3ZD+sH7ntNpbXAO98OqBCNV/mq2J/E6EXQVQIHKpzUlUmB+J YG6h3WMPRfCW1ignQ0FC9jLt/C7nL7UPAxJTFSn95p/QU= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > Please no more incompatibilities with older Emacsen except when > absolutely necessary. It's already hard enough for packages developed > outside the Emacs repo. My suggestion is not more incompatible than the current approach. And reintroducing names that we had declared obsolete in a second step is even backwards compatible then. Let's please not get impatient, let's try to find the one solution that we want to keep this time. Else we only postpone the problem into the future, and this is not ideal for packages outside of Emacs either - it's worse, in the long run. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 11:24:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 07:24:37 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44075 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t51Nt-0000Ux-5U for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:24:37 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:38390) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t51Np-0000Ul-AL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:24:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t51NG-0005oQ-5M for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:23:58 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t51NE-00037s-Nz for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 07:23:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1730028217; x=1730633017; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=Kao6b3PoCk7nOUrtG593GXbw1Fh9VAryi1EgcT80DWc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=NzC5COzQwQsCEpsbP5W/AYSiXFhqZ+vXI40E5C/nVU9vqb6S+KJHkb+ODs2eICHN 8wUNppclXE11/l9BdmFr3tyEp+0TLboaN2FIcRPBkClhe5eevtdD+bTbbZeIiWCHE y7wjF8ZsdRMHzOh52kZjdDsI4EvKTX8xpButUHAIOkwUeE/wFOLsNxwtCmRVKO5L7 NL5JFjKx7cHNN+osZSqopudHwIOVMbughC07iY18VLsb7FgQGlfo6Fo4UK4X+0H+z XFu05zB02IcHJifMt5v9m+DjqP3QQnICZNEE33VnB2Oc3DGj54qP1g1p85DrjMFVQ i+0K0TVTS03c7qcFTg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxpiO-1tnnmx25OA-012off; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:23:37 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Albinus's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:12:58 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 12:24:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87ed41kcuk.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:s+yR5vKiZ1UK6Qc7qVeF107HWBs8vIYBRZGljojyV1z6OW5HPct yoDJ0HaOM8q+DjQphTbrv6ONJls5dct0mWchiA62incBhghVIQyTB7O0ovwrPdmSuF0c8GW JANp0j6L9jRih/8wxlEHWAv3eRKoCzoU34K0sgKOyr5PbBeu+RcatZldBDHO1dySILSMRAh K6U4M9NwR3hL7MqO6mtnw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:ao0A1bOc0Ug=;U3wgXlICUu+iZUxt18jivjYowmW jXZjs+s1eiECje8IzgErxQUOE601TkGaPQSqC4CoxlO7RkanX008SBYaffB7wq3kU9e2MUih+ SOIXDCHwY/VPUTInbKNbzShJvhMkMIQRqXCAM7hbECxpUt5L8ImP7jWl0hGVaCbrB5khqwHtl LwttHQI0apHS0L8+BsGDOgOqj1Sic8UMMEYbtXM9sMGj99b2iRmSIL08ZDBD+eVGb60JMItQ7 yZbYNAg+2SPX91Ml2VGQ+XbAnxrbB3nZjt/P0+EW3etlopG4CGPPj8/21piSRbepmplrNVjAo hSgpuFaRurack9fkZe7TLaiMHxdwkzt9pEeO5n2dDHeZrZawr8ABcAEvvzFQPTXEMl9cRic3D CKbpSSjafzu1zbvuI2f0a71c33vkqiXrHixeRoYIRbp3NBxYcRMhOEV4KUEtDPd18RI4P1mC0 vmbZpC7IK/X3SMERcIzYM8aczKBPgQuvcwboo3GvQ/511KF11PkK6xGtEr7K0ega1w1yHjKJZ MdsJ4aSkWYMEfyuKH1JICAV9U/Wz+5nfMeMDGr/aKamQUmaw7UsRW2jmNcwS22uflFg/VrWar cUHGMZp+79JZ56aa70dAGCDG7MXU0Ne0mGw2wMqWFdNrBNZY57hSviwKDgcPDT1h9FNKpd5Ev XEjtv0jGBYeqpC2Sj6bN85H66CpKjEex/4EVeWXZ/xh+NPDfFDsxNrEZL/WcPu4v84qbBKgAf RdZSBsA0W84fncQRpZ4YJiSsH3ZD+sH7ntNpbXAO98OqBCNV/mq2J/E6EXQVQIHKpzUlUmB+J YG6h3WMPRfCW1ignQ0FC9jLt/C7nL7UPAxJTFSn95p/QU= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.12; envelope-from=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, "Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > Please no more incompatibilities with older Emacsen except when > absolutely necessary. It's already hard enough for packages developed > outside the Emacs repo. My suggestion is not more incompatible than the current approach. And reintroducing names that we had declared obsolete in a second step is even backwards compatible then. Let's please not get impatient, let's try to find the one solution that we want to keep this time. Else we only postpone the problem into the future, and this is not ideal for packages outside of Emacs either - it's worse, in the long run. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 10:16:06 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 06:16:06 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43865 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t50JZ-0005YN-Om for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 06:16:06 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:44386) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t50JX-0005Y9-UJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 06:16:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t50Gp-0008Dr-Qx for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 06:13:15 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t50Go-0001SP-Bq for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 06:13:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1730023980; x=1730628780; i=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; bh=PGta/vZ0ok799gvNApcj4cdyhuAQa8G/PWTfW/2FFhs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=JwlU2We5kEUNClkUYeeiEmTYnjM+ZvzdfOWQdly2Z27eQfSxvK3wj1KJ0U6MNGH1 27bor3TwWl56Dgsebb28f/lrUJxrcikJ5oYiHNUq3XxcokX5Apr9IUY0Jx061uTp3 nVMsCQnV7Fh4+Zose2feBQb9fuDZxTTIBJ3Da1Tn9BWFunCfkTqeqzbv/mOQHyP8v ttPQSm7atVrfzPri7+MqHgODZrHNnlQw2dH5v2V2lHtVBLb0S3gs08UKkfltu8JFM uEBLIpB9waKnD2YTT/oBdQyO1aVHoO+thYotx9md9tezrXj4bDmOsQRTXhTV8OAA3 ocYNAH2fhMfdqbythg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.38.155]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAwXr-1tBvD3140X-00Emwf; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:13:00 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen via's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 10:16:00 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:12:58 +0100 Message-ID: <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:h3Li3cEo2zyS7iV+R1+r3bguw3k5PliuINjq7JwCoHIo+sKDuqy u1atH1kusXfCOUxb7Dr2/OIgzV7cseHiIvjN52ZUv0F1qSKGCxZr0nU+2JyHXmcfHcxc130 Hlzh8yHi3EZrncWWZaVJA7J1hwvuzMfn5fZn3333W+4b+vNUr+1aGZnJNttWuiPz8lDP2Zo mp1RRpDz/OzQg/0mytTvw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:0mS8oydPBVQ=;ge3PtL7gPi2rZSeIp6US5SIePMM SWr4u3BGFj/fUjcb/WzC9NLjYO9/4lfPgCl34jX2xSrzq8LcOSOb+KyE4F+SdlTA7DsiTvOJx bfscT2BpvuVJy5muK26i2GSqMcAtItrsGdeuMJoZuKL7dotj171WS+K6PILYBcUkd0ops/5w0 HNKPOrkl+QW9YyoOX2Bwnzg1yWdJ48zzfdxL82bp8xRuuhGoeW4f8nYoEuOHNOYea+C987pG7 WKsGLz8fEbBe6h8zH6W91tB8TOu9lZ0qIR31doPGwLoIunQvPvpQpkYPXtIGQIo5V8D7N0TbP vWOGw6btRIobYLh2dCLXj5LT3ug3A3l7bhYBVwphJlfvIsoZPWfjYb2V8mpnVkwGDvsEwdUVm Hhso8Xm4dxsXA1yeznYJy7itqAgJK/KnTFWGLJo3/G2pFXhuu4EHkC1SPEedr/vnxGTZyZjUv sjqmJXcWzs68AvX6OqG63pBQQY1uIqJJI2mTY8P8OV9aziXa1IQhL/qXaYvLodCDYMNna3u4h AkgeEAdyHP1MDutGeOtZI73qEX1AF6GKiRLklAR3tWdZNPeSrrCoa9DwDQZ8Yq/qlUrKtntBk krPLQuHowhwAlEeN2dCVldV5UPryPUAoesOo6J8ssqfVtoOSVKn+seWmKTt9hq/ORo2dRSXsk AgEbE55qRMpL9NsWY3+qQu0ggxKKYYAG3YXrR3lQeJc/L/hN2UNFm1mpU6LNAaI0yY1DRPOON xdLr+6jhpXXGNlLWdhJPm9sTKd9dWFOLxg9jyHV63Y1vBxF55E5rPr2JW05mTl5tzFknyxVrO ZMzPQhkswLzRvTPQkkW5RR8Q== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.15; envelope-from=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Michael, > Thinking the first example further we could introduce parallel versions > and name them `if-let', `when-let' and `and-let'. They would be really > analogue to `let' with respect to binding list semantics - compared to > the non-parallel counterparts `if-let*' that are what we have now. Please no more incompatibilities with older Emacsen except when absolutely necessary. It's already hard enough for packages developed outside the Emacs repo. > Michael. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 10:13:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 06:13:49 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43856 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t50HN-0005Nr-5L for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 06:13:49 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:60123) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1t50HK-0005Nb-KP for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 06:13:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1730023980; x=1730628780; i=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; bh=PGta/vZ0ok799gvNApcj4cdyhuAQa8G/PWTfW/2FFhs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=JwlU2We5kEUNClkUYeeiEmTYnjM+ZvzdfOWQdly2Z27eQfSxvK3wj1KJ0U6MNGH1 27bor3TwWl56Dgsebb28f/lrUJxrcikJ5oYiHNUq3XxcokX5Apr9IUY0Jx061uTp3 nVMsCQnV7Fh4+Zose2feBQb9fuDZxTTIBJ3Da1Tn9BWFunCfkTqeqzbv/mOQHyP8v ttPQSm7atVrfzPri7+MqHgODZrHNnlQw2dH5v2V2lHtVBLb0S3gs08UKkfltu8JFM uEBLIpB9waKnD2YTT/oBdQyO1aVHoO+thYotx9md9tezrXj4bDmOsQRTXhTV8OAA3 ocYNAH2fhMfdqbythg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.38.155]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAwXr-1tBvD3140X-00Emwf; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:13:00 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen via's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 10:16:00 +0100") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> <87msipkisv.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:12:58 +0100 Message-ID: <871q01am6t.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:h3Li3cEo2zyS7iV+R1+r3bguw3k5PliuINjq7JwCoHIo+sKDuqy u1atH1kusXfCOUxb7Dr2/OIgzV7cseHiIvjN52ZUv0F1qSKGCxZr0nU+2JyHXmcfHcxc130 Hlzh8yHi3EZrncWWZaVJA7J1hwvuzMfn5fZn3333W+4b+vNUr+1aGZnJNttWuiPz8lDP2Zo mp1RRpDz/OzQg/0mytTvw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:0mS8oydPBVQ=;ge3PtL7gPi2rZSeIp6US5SIePMM SWr4u3BGFj/fUjcb/WzC9NLjYO9/4lfPgCl34jX2xSrzq8LcOSOb+KyE4F+SdlTA7DsiTvOJx bfscT2BpvuVJy5muK26i2GSqMcAtItrsGdeuMJoZuKL7dotj171WS+K6PILYBcUkd0ops/5w0 HNKPOrkl+QW9YyoOX2Bwnzg1yWdJ48zzfdxL82bp8xRuuhGoeW4f8nYoEuOHNOYea+C987pG7 WKsGLz8fEbBe6h8zH6W91tB8TOu9lZ0qIR31doPGwLoIunQvPvpQpkYPXtIGQIo5V8D7N0TbP vWOGw6btRIobYLh2dCLXj5LT3ug3A3l7bhYBVwphJlfvIsoZPWfjYb2V8mpnVkwGDvsEwdUVm Hhso8Xm4dxsXA1yeznYJy7itqAgJK/KnTFWGLJo3/G2pFXhuu4EHkC1SPEedr/vnxGTZyZjUv sjqmJXcWzs68AvX6OqG63pBQQY1uIqJJI2mTY8P8OV9aziXa1IQhL/qXaYvLodCDYMNna3u4h AkgeEAdyHP1MDutGeOtZI73qEX1AF6GKiRLklAR3tWdZNPeSrrCoa9DwDQZ8Yq/qlUrKtntBk krPLQuHowhwAlEeN2dCVldV5UPryPUAoesOo6J8ssqfVtoOSVKn+seWmKTt9hq/ORo2dRSXsk AgEbE55qRMpL9NsWY3+qQu0ggxKKYYAG3YXrR3lQeJc/L/hN2UNFm1mpU6LNAaI0yY1DRPOON xdLr+6jhpXXGNlLWdhJPm9sTKd9dWFOLxg9jyHV63Y1vBxF55E5rPr2JW05mTl5tzFknyxVrO ZMzPQhkswLzRvTPQkkW5RR8Q== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Michael, > Thinking the first example further we could introduce parallel versions > and name them `if-let', `when-let' and `and-let'. They would be really > analogue to `let' with respect to binding list semantics - compared to > the non-parallel counterparts `if-let*' that are what we have now. Please no more incompatibilities with older Emacsen except when absolutely necessary. It's already hard enough for packages developed outside the Emacs repo. > Michael. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for
when-let*?
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2024 00:08:20 -0700")
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Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes:
> Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > On the other hand, the way bindings work in 'if-let*' and 'when-let*'
> > are closer to 'let*' than 'let'. I think that's a false friend though,
> > since they're only similar, not actually the same (of course the
> > semantics couldn't be exactly the same or there'd be no reason for
> > 'if-let*' and 'when-let*' to exist).
>
> FWIW, this is the argument that convinced me that the `*`-versions are
> better: bindings are more like in `let` than in `let*`. To my mind,
> that makes the `*`-naming more self-documenting and clear.
In the meantime I found out that I am not as decided as I thought:
I am actually using both versions in my own code. Valid arguments for
either name exist - and it even depends on the case:
In this case I prefer the name without star:
#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(if-let ((a (does-an-a-exist?-then-return-it)))
(use a)
(do-something-else))
#+end_src
Here I prefer the name with star:
#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(and-let* ((a (an-a-exists))
(b (b-depending-on-a-also-exists)))
(test-using a b))
#+end_src
Thinking the first example further we could introduce parallel versions
and name them `if-let', `when-let' and `and-let'. They would be really
analogue to `let' with respect to binding list semantics - compared to
the non-parallel counterparts `if-let*' that are what we have now.
ATM this idea looks appealing to me as a final goal.
Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2024 07:10:05 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 27 03:10:04 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43624 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t4xPY-0005Is-GB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 03:10:04 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-f46.google.com ([209.85.208.46]:49256) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1t4xPW-0005IH-6r for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 03:10:02 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-f46.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5c95a962c2bso4178377a12.2 for <73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 00:09:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1730012902; x=1730617702; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YkTejvc/VtI64P8Fd16QyosdN9ktQqyZjryvjM+aDIg=; b=P7VoHScD45DPSEldSQRxvu+sPHosf89MZe6i236aZEJf36MR/qtKujUj3zhU77bX2v uG5Q2XIPxGyGSi6Tyb9n8hlPrw7eelkrNU7d5lugvRZFq4mu9gg9HPKWjkGKdzSFUiKM yZm7CHWCmb2xu6B0n3ORlLbVZEv3/rcimG8EFDtAfS/wIn/FnCyDZy4jbmzmLCHCyQGB Wn+SvtfmLJT9mE4+feJTnndTdgK/NbosYPonfsVOUJxtMd6LPHmElatOlzLcVnOtJGWP Tqp2lTNUyXRvadwoK2rz5b6C19P6QHhY4G2+IbAg0tuuOU7D97rwo86QE10otketM98Y aENQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1730012902; x=1730617702; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YkTejvc/VtI64P8Fd16QyosdN9ktQqyZjryvjM+aDIg=; b=m0GLXFQWmiWTTeZtIyoutFH0A6i+xXxC/S8z28aNV0IRRoQakDWr3dNKqGbLe1Rt+m 7QC3hKTWIAHBTRX8CzHDq7cW3Do8dGdw6jsmUEAmuQqBGfloOIZhdcy6iMYTKqGcTRlB 9AGLmd/Myj6/IwmXElOb0dbWxB57iLIJ0ZrL6HpHgTWok7lLpe4HoFqYk/sIok1ZZW8g nJPiT0MCUD+AJPLXV4yhuXFQBX19hHlgMZ/FT2E3HB0j7G3sQPuooYQepO0YcH2x1HMZ NEfHjqsX8WGs3g+EIh12Ni7RsxYAEZB6+2vNMJe9JSU8xK8eadgGlFV33Trvk+9Q1TbG DeXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyPI+adkSkFIKuymVz9HxHLiWI045J7SpsF4z0jPtp0ZIy6iFpA 8aLg3qaxd3l0ODSeINMNOfGzXG9RXHvWvzdDDq77Kc+WlVQKPQzHp3M+p7ekxf/zR40YR3Go+oD 21iAyfvjB9oLoJV2Lk+c2yPUlJ7E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHolm4P5uz1CbGR6M5FTW2F8BsPoe9AzOHxOUoAhPwbHf6MxHwIiefqNw1H9c3TuhQEcmcwYmJDGCXI54c+71M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:35c2:b0:5cb:6869:24b4 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5cbbf747355mr3148638a12.0.1730012901451; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 00:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 00:08:20 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 00:08:20 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkm=uWFSj1wLbGhm00-oz9AtXAGN7BsC_e+yJ5bOxNkszSw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes: > On the other hand, the way bindings work in 'if-let*' and 'when-let*' > are closer to 'let*' than 'let'. I think that's a false friend though, > since they're only similar, not actually the same (of course the > semantics couldn't be exactly the same or there'd be no reason for > 'if-let*' and 'when-let*' to exist). FWIW, this is the argument that convinced me that the `*`-versions are better: bindings are more like in `let` than in `let*`. To my mind, that makes the `*`-naming more self-documenting and clear.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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[23.240.98.37]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-72057a3a18dsm3032984b3a.184.2024.10.26.12.25.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 26 Oct 2024 12:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <cce27780-e6f6-3a63-fcfe-b04f3cab633a@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 12:25:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? Content-Language: en-US To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: control <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 10/22/2024 8:24 AM, Michael Heerdegen via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: > Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: > >> retitle 73853 Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? >> thanks > > Thanks for the fine summary. > >> - I'd like to go ahead and install a patch marking when-let and if-let >> as obsolete, unless Michael is keen to be the one to do it as the >> initiator of the previous effort > > He is not, feel free to go ahead when there are no objections from > others. I missed this before this change merged, but I think I'd have preferred to keep 'if-let' and 'when-let' around, and only to obsolete their backward-compatible forms, with the goal of removing that backward-compatibility one day. Then we'd eventually result in 'if-let' and 'when-let' (with their preferred semantics) being the only forms around. It's a minor thing, but I generally read a "*" suffix on a function/macro name to mean "this function is an extension or modification of the non-* form". But if there's no (non-obsolete) non-star form then that breaks down. On the other hand, the way bindings work in 'if-let*' and 'when-let*' are closer to 'let*' than 'let'. I think that's a false friend though, since they're only similar, not actually the same (of course the semantics couldn't be exactly the same or there'd be no reason for 'if-let*' and 'when-let*' to exist). Maybe I'm the odd one out here and everyone else prefers to keep 'if-let*' for the long term, in which case I won't dig my heels in on this issue.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2024 12:10:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 25 08:10:10 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37619 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t4J8r-0000YT-SB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 Oct 2024 08:10:10 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:57288) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t4J8p-0000YB-K4 for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 Oct 2024 08:10:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=CZtH9kvH0aZD1qMCYk6qqrHH02N59OgMFGuZyoWiTxvXfLSBeoG3xq7gTEybVzE3cQ0DVSUTmYSLyEAkpjIasNkvQiW6HtoY4ZE5o+ps+4uyvRon65tdlsUGYg5cZaifvMcHFL1vjCkG4eUtTMLaLBQrWNbwF5LlI+oKHbPus4H1H0wuzPjf8/f+zZXX17QXLbZxSv2otiNJwmirNqFFN1SHCKktzw7+POjFGF+U77cgvNY3zzDq26f0SkMDzlyATiduhrT0BNmx1V78p3Hf4XPU7+pwOeR4lU/VrAB4FQrqS2N9LRbdqeqa2G9S51sNIV5QzRtqcAM0YzmKcAo0CA==; s=purelymail2; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=nFuzcjcHEYcfg2Moi4dXSGaXI6XJhy0q2ZHI0joq2mg=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=FAb9JBgCVu/I1Flr7NlZBeZ3dwSQ2OV7EQoTk5jqks5Lamz87hEuavxwdNrnkPeaxL21v2/BcyaJ82Af8qcP7n0ujx2GZymNaj8GuKCbqU5nUVCDCkWrdhJTKkKFXAuC/eLKfmWw5vWrVdDrFMewStn++J1Rt77ijf/w+qs0XcDNxnb3LKyvTBMzOhe9ay/zPgPgQ/epwAVAZL5YYNEQOocSYQwxRJcjitdRdBEeZJmMmDzYaKl3bI/xl2n/d+23iVH6apBM05IZ4z0tB+dmNOi/yU0U8EMnIpEz1Q+mJHFDR0CxwN7/fdSOkK0VgCM/sGLwK7CVAJuRznMd14LlDg==; s=purelymail2; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=nFuzcjcHEYcfg2Moi4dXSGaXI6XJhy0q2ZHI0joq2mg=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id -1026264425; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Fri, 25 Oct 2024 12:09:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A80D67EACFD; Fri, 25 Oct 2024 20:09:21 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN> (Sean Whitton's message of "Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:51:56 +0800") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmXo6XnK5pfSb83=n0hj6u5LXBEzc3nJykU4cfPm+KXaQ@HIDDEN> <878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 20:09:21 +0800 Message-ID: <87o738s7ta.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Thu 24 Oct 2024 at 04:51pm +08, Sean Whitton wrote: > Done. I will go ahead and update org-mode.git but I have not updated > any externally maintained code in emacs.git. I know that sometimes > changes get backported from emacs.git to external repos by maintainers, > but it doesn't seem ideal to make a large slew of changes they have to > backport. Let me know if you don't think that's right. Just to follow up here. - Michael reports he is handling TRAMP in tramp.git and will import here at an appropriate time. - I've sent in a GitHub PR for Transient and requested a release, and an eventual import to emacs.git. - I've written to Ihor about Org-mode, and as I say, I committed a patch to their trunk branch. There are also some uses in the modus themes but we don't compile those, so, it can be left to upstream to fix when they notice it. So, in short, all remaining byte compiler warnings in emacs.git related to this change are tracked somewhere and will get fixed soon. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2024 08:52:40 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 24 04:52:39 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33608 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t3taB-0007OG-Ga for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Oct 2024 04:52:39 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:55918) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t3taA-0007Nx-3W for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Oct 2024 04:52:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=BK0qO9sk9AyLuB9DgWNhGh2+7Fj+D+ycHQkUbbL6vfLUPU0gf9WHmznTpVGCfAqseGVeLNLBufKTsL+rHE3QwjclWBfj8IZoCfEMqiBX7xOaynZLw32yttlGlcRmQ773vJJfWyvY74jsuvB4hJ64R5JU+r/Cxs81GNEdqWItHM0pLkINP8Ne22q+FQYTn6scPLGqXcw1O6dyRxcDOPr/1R/MW/e4abR+Cj++hdQz6eTBmxTT6/jhAgrMIuhXwJ6V0A6IxRBgAj4ZciThGkOoiNHZvBUOBjVn9tTF/V3H+j6whOIZ9SujUgo0tz4pKomYsd4Wrmq+/ce8Nghjkv4pLA==; s=purelymail2; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=eIx6ZZo15ZCj97IDASF5+9BhA6Tl0bHMjod5hqZfPAM=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=fQTelD51wTHranLmpxIQmtoPHhxJ1Q9lOSdTp/jKm/2bMJZkY5Il1zZlzH5P5evhBTi9LKq6uOwzJ5Ryj0e1IJMf7N1+JtiT7IdHE+iukvK2WMDNzHQsSewbwlJkTVRptC4yVY4DEJZ4gucJVZxsvid3ZI9iyUBmP0nmCbfRmRKHhvsq8rV+u0UcluN4wpwcVUyh264Qp90zT3QTSyqr8DERek434NECTQ5MeRxJSMPnbGZz1F3ewhDenKMtRj4m9rIFqEgZjM6v6IZW7+l1Fc/ddWwORYu0cL7CnfbwrvcHWNiMtXUDclYYWtTKrpp/YFWKeXBFvc8yu1Nh9auLXQ==; s=purelymail2; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=eIx6ZZo15ZCj97IDASF5+9BhA6Tl0bHMjod5hqZfPAM=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id 1582832607; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Thu, 24 Oct 2024 08:52:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 43C3D7ED9AB; Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:51:56 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*? In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmXo6XnK5pfSb83=n0hj6u5LXBEzc3nJykU4cfPm+KXaQ@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 23 Oct 2024 07:05:39 -0700") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN> <87ed48b3er.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <87a5ew5few.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmXo6XnK5pfSb83=n0hj6u5LXBEzc3nJykU4cfPm+KXaQ@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:51:56 +0800 Message-ID: <878qud7uj7.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Wed 23 Oct 2024 at 07:05am -07, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes: >> >>> - I'd like to go ahead and install a patch marking when-let and if-let >>> as obsolete, unless Michael is keen to be the one to do it as the >>> initiator of the previous effort >> >> He is not, feel free to go ahead when there are no objections from >> others. > > Sounds good, and thanks in advance. > > Please also fix any new obsoletion warnings in our code. Done. I will go ahead and update org-mode.git but I have not updated any externally maintained code in emacs.git. I know that sometimes changes get backported from emacs.git to external repos by maintainers, but it doesn't seem ideal to make a large slew of changes they have to backport. Let me know if you don't think that's right. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Michael Heerdegen
<michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; Should and-let* become a synonym for
when-let*?
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnsyiTQVQyEmu0Ke+sh+LwOqp+_tFFQtctULTphevhLKw@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 20 Oct 2024 05:24:02 -0700")
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retitle 73853 Should and-let* become a synonym for when-let*?
thanks
Hello,
On Sun 20 Oct 2024 at 05:24am -07, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> I would like us to move forward with removing the non-star ones.
>
> I also agree that removing them would make sense.
I've found the old discussion on this:
- https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=60758#58
- https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2018-03/msg00052.html
- https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2018-03/msg00219.html
Based on my reading of this thread and those old discussions, I conclude
- it is fine to mark when-let and if-let as obsolete for Emacs 31, and
generally there's more of a consensus, and several good reasons, to do
that instead of removing if-let* and when-let*
- I'd like to go ahead and install a patch marking when-let and if-let
as obsolete, unless Michael is keen to be the one to do it as the
initiator of the previous effort
- enough people want to keep and-let*, but possibly some aspects of its
syntax should be removed
- I'm retitling the bug to reflect that.
--
Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Oct 2024 12:09:43 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 21 08:09:43 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50492 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t2rEF-0005w8-HL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:09:43 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:51642) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t2rED-0005vt-4L for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:09:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=RtTmRDpqqGL6QuNpdYsWHH3EjVpWQjmSoiLfCZIBRbG8Jghr0/ViEVLI7NfRNSkV4sNCVNvPQ0Ki+4pSHCbxYHDe1+zlBWrjaGbugqxoDsetl0ceXibJSaXTmten1aNAX5WXToRSZX8X1JIvuGlJhNc4xnKxHMaEMZfZmBgDn/eqCFX7kTxWuy2zo2w8Aei/geS9s5nBW/yU0+65hKpXMZgb9dik6dAa3BqOjZ2ETtVayaBvJlaJXA5y3LkUrVwLLKvGi9sYCqcuLDHhWWYmGgz47z6u4JLiRKm7LsdY+563EBcAXyq5XZnYih34q+AGhkcQo1Z1YikuzepxlV/jxQ==; s=purelymail1; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=qnQfmtQJA5OWAGxUFEvELW98eyCx4QMEgIaptCcXOv8=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=cgbJWiGkNjf0n4hkim2cjPnQlmsN+dI2ag4pg+w5QabxFE5q6jykXtEuMDjjlwBZqNwXNQ7ZzNIUqgqFIITVO+1Lzs76kSv4kWOQ/hLRrvesPpYSF/Gs7fg+Vv7ZM8Q25kJ5MBRSjw4d/IcsbZOij1u0iJ6/jeZRIOSFw6tIWT+QQ8DyOt9xvrzRRWPrPSRg5DplaoxveISnGOsKBqEf0gjynOGMf2P4f87gk6j9X2bjWLq2wjpxfKTn+TE5WvYJ0A/lnLOcOGwhx2UbPNMAM2pjkccgU+UtiVxGw8ZfUwdqxHGjAbPBEUMDl9jwt07XeLrdqaH2XBE0zLVPqMHpGw==; s=purelymail1; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=qnQfmtQJA5OWAGxUFEvELW98eyCx4QMEgIaptCcXOv8=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id 414641136; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8E4217E980D; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:09:04 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; and-let* is useless In-Reply-To: <878quh6dg7.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen via's message of "Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:57:12 +0200") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbjzhasvw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87r08akk75.fsf@HIDDEN> <878quh6dg7.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:09:04 +0800 Message-ID: <87y12hirof.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Mon 21 Oct 2024 at 10:57am +02, Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote: > Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I always type `if-let' because it looks cleaner and saves one indentation >> column (which are purely cosmetic reasons), but also I think it would be >> weird to have a something* when there's no accompanying something. > > Good point, we should decide which names to use. Personally i prefer > the names ending with star, because bindings are not parallel as in > `let'. But we also already spoke about this. Dunno which names are > more popular, it's a matter of taste. I prefer if-let* for this reason too. Also: - it informs a reader that there is no way they are going to see the unusual single binding syntax. - Common Lisp's ubiquitous Alexandria library of basic utilities has an if-let which has the unusual single binding syntax. In fact, that is probably where our if-let came from. So if we are moving away from that, it makes sense to use a different name for the thing we invented -- if-let*. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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Mon, 21 Oct 2024 04:56:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1729500986; x=1730105786; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=DAM/eGbBYYpzoBLUCltjgIk3Mhi0LnMoinxmazyBClk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=hgrQgOWg17wTzajUKLBPyOYZvrBFQwc4GJY8Y0Gbt6wycTruUhstIl+u70oC/vRM ZwtE1JhLR2JQ/2TPHf8sxzf3YGTDIC1C1dbo+bC2UTO6XQKsyrtrsK090miv+bL9W YOG0B24Mj8Z1lq/Kh2t7qtXdVlTYDyAYhUrfZ0tMr6/T8aIN86gmBQq+JAWp5g1Qi eJqTfEnsmj0N4waKrBhUSs7mEBwOrlwevLoZjbAmePkVgbmRS5IyhpH0BanYGGX/K HHCmFyAhoADgzvbUXPyQccx7HjaP7AxPfFkpaimL3P9F63VuEzEiTAJatSid+dulC /Wt3eBtQKKgfdCnhQw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MOUxu-1tGbzw1iJS-00Pvrz; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:56:26 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; and-let* is useless In-Reply-To: <87r08akk75.fsf@HIDDEN> (Augusto Stoffel's message of "Mon, 21 Oct 2024 09:07:42 +0200") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbjzhasvw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87r08akk75.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:57:12 +0200 Message-ID: <878quh6dg7.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6oKjuOCeOfMXrBaEttwhrcFjpWtQmVfDi+BkYvG6oLHV4035KrI IJEe7GRfKW+Njk6oDfB/enFy/ydAOyPzL62cUWDuTY/KrDuJXV2Se2sqd3+SJ9WhbEiIuz5 GqNnIvzYojD88S38QtmQKpezpDaB+gNh7oZLgYr1e81P9ycuOXL1fpzw3TB4tBzSdiuOSZu 4WDFQoNY8IIasSruBENgg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:e3VI6mMG7Sk=;0XHqCG7WCMTembjWeiiirwbiUn2 X9Un8E5EuS26Buw7qE8pYlQc8wAAIj7bky7CHUQJm6KJ2hXhdml48vKBOgQqPz4Xh2Qq5MZ9L w8jFqA9o2CycleScOLD/XpEsy9El/vIuwhWQ3QJDfXqZz6yddOtYt7IBEKZ81mW4uRZRib+/G uoePc8kQO9iPL3Ber+x7SXEIDkxfECRI/yX1pPlJXKzOyrMNvnOY5r9pydO1E+ykDA7rGV4l9 YIGEEXKSg+6wZdU4Mw0qyMjYKujLC4TtzleHQR9Bl7WirN++TuVAmM5IGHgmoWrZBf4rmaTF6 pGKzo6M88/+7okdHosY/QT9E2y8flQbs1CAZstKvYRjbKtrUglp3wP4Vjx1aH5kw/EtHx6UbB QzV3BkkUx6Qz4EWZ0eNykpg5jlLnTLNawZN8c1fGv22b2/Bzuf7lMFyyjbiBwAd7b9F8mAOA9 16Ihz4OWP6f6r3dm4ZBNBewZZpshYHEgvCuznRpiZlLQ21Pl/zr8NxTSLYskepgNkO63Kb+8p Y+ILqGySbIadaTAPOpAwxy6kd77iVRrK7oOf4C5T9gVyqE+uTOkLUpoWY/t+9RiFE1pPgo1OK WHlfCwBwUJlB8kZirjymYd0OqgLft106gnB2iLW18CuBa1IAOhz8xfqyGKFAOPI+ojiJ+XL7z MxLearhSC8UMamCVcekDrVlfp5ONbpo5vp9lksF4+MmaYtn2AAao+P/9I3NnF6m3I2T1KULza FsTBf4QeyOc+T7UuMOjXIXw4kn0W1qDHEtPKaXTdd5afOtVc+MgxQJRoe7ayIqM+TbWub/eHK qGoCZlQ0JzXtQiUoePV+DVxA== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.4; envelope-from=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: "Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@HIDDEN> writes: > I always type `if-let' because it looks cleaner and saves one indentation > column (which are purely cosmetic reasons), but also I think it would be > weird to have a something* when there's no accompanying something. Good point, we should decide which names to use. Personally i prefer the names ending with star, because bindings are not parallel as in `let'. But we also already spoke about this. Dunno which names are more popular, it's a matter of taste. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Oct 2024 08:57:12 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 21 04:57:12 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50191 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t2oDv-0005YK-Qj for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 04:57:12 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:49089) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t2oDt-0005Y5-EA for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 04:57:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1729500986; x=1730105786; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=DAM/eGbBYYpzoBLUCltjgIk3Mhi0LnMoinxmazyBClk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=hgrQgOWg17wTzajUKLBPyOYZvrBFQwc4GJY8Y0Gbt6wycTruUhstIl+u70oC/vRM ZwtE1JhLR2JQ/2TPHf8sxzf3YGTDIC1C1dbo+bC2UTO6XQKsyrtrsK090miv+bL9W YOG0B24Mj8Z1lq/Kh2t7qtXdVlTYDyAYhUrfZ0tMr6/T8aIN86gmBQq+JAWp5g1Qi eJqTfEnsmj0N4waKrBhUSs7mEBwOrlwevLoZjbAmePkVgbmRS5IyhpH0BanYGGX/K HHCmFyAhoADgzvbUXPyQccx7HjaP7AxPfFkpaimL3P9F63VuEzEiTAJatSid+dulC /Wt3eBtQKKgfdCnhQw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MOUxu-1tGbzw1iJS-00Pvrz; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:56:26 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; and-let* is useless In-Reply-To: <87r08akk75.fsf@HIDDEN> (Augusto Stoffel's message of "Mon, 21 Oct 2024 09:07:42 +0200") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbjzhasvw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87r08akk75.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:57:12 +0200 Message-ID: <878quh6dg7.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6oKjuOCeOfMXrBaEttwhrcFjpWtQmVfDi+BkYvG6oLHV4035KrI IJEe7GRfKW+Njk6oDfB/enFy/ydAOyPzL62cUWDuTY/KrDuJXV2Se2sqd3+SJ9WhbEiIuz5 GqNnIvzYojD88S38QtmQKpezpDaB+gNh7oZLgYr1e81P9ycuOXL1fpzw3TB4tBzSdiuOSZu 4WDFQoNY8IIasSruBENgg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:e3VI6mMG7Sk=;0XHqCG7WCMTembjWeiiirwbiUn2 X9Un8E5EuS26Buw7qE8pYlQc8wAAIj7bky7CHUQJm6KJ2hXhdml48vKBOgQqPz4Xh2Qq5MZ9L w8jFqA9o2CycleScOLD/XpEsy9El/vIuwhWQ3QJDfXqZz6yddOtYt7IBEKZ81mW4uRZRib+/G uoePc8kQO9iPL3Ber+x7SXEIDkxfECRI/yX1pPlJXKzOyrMNvnOY5r9pydO1E+ykDA7rGV4l9 YIGEEXKSg+6wZdU4Mw0qyMjYKujLC4TtzleHQR9Bl7WirN++TuVAmM5IGHgmoWrZBf4rmaTF6 pGKzo6M88/+7okdHosY/QT9E2y8flQbs1CAZstKvYRjbKtrUglp3wP4Vjx1aH5kw/EtHx6UbB QzV3BkkUx6Qz4EWZ0eNykpg5jlLnTLNawZN8c1fGv22b2/Bzuf7lMFyyjbiBwAd7b9F8mAOA9 16Ihz4OWP6f6r3dm4ZBNBewZZpshYHEgvCuznRpiZlLQ21Pl/zr8NxTSLYskepgNkO63Kb+8p Y+ILqGySbIadaTAPOpAwxy6kd77iVRrK7oOf4C5T9gVyqE+uTOkLUpoWY/t+9RiFE1pPgo1OK WHlfCwBwUJlB8kZirjymYd0OqgLft106gnB2iLW18CuBa1IAOhz8xfqyGKFAOPI+ojiJ+XL7z MxLearhSC8UMamCVcekDrVlfp5ONbpo5vp9lksF4+MmaYtn2AAao+P/9I3NnF6m3I2T1KULza FsTBf4QeyOc+T7UuMOjXIXw4kn0W1qDHEtPKaXTdd5afOtVc+MgxQJRoe7ayIqM+TbWub/eHK qGoCZlQ0JzXtQiUoePV+DVxA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: "Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@HIDDEN> writes: > I always type `if-let' because it looks cleaner and saves one indentation > column (which are purely cosmetic reasons), but also I think it would be > weird to have a something* when there's no accompanying something. Good point, we should decide which names to use. Personally i prefer the names ending with star, because bindings are not parallel as in `let'. But we also already spoke about this. Dunno which names are more popular, it's a matter of taste. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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Parallel existence of these non-star >> vs. star versions should be a temporary state, it complicates the matter >> for an epsilon gain. > > 100% agreement. Can we `make-obsolete` the non-star versions? Wait... The point of make-obsolete is to generate warning so people migrate their code, right? So why not warn on the weird (single-variable binding) use of the non-star version, to eventually remove that syntax as well as the star variants? I always type `if-let' because it looks cleaner and saves one indentation column (which are purely cosmetic reasons), but also I think it would be weird to have a something* when there's no accompanying something. >>> I could see a use for something called `and-let(*)` but without a BODY, >>> for the purpose of remove a level of parens and indentation: >>> >>> (and-let* >>> (x1 (foo1)) >>> (x2 (foo2))) >>> >>> i.s.o >>> >>> (and-let* >>> ((x1 (foo1)) >>> (x2 (foo2)))) >> >> Ugh! - I could not imagine anything with more potential for confusion as >> removing the paren around a list of bindings. > > FWIW, I agree, I don't like that either. Sure, I guess nobody wants that, but this idea is getting closer to a `thread-while' macro (variation of `thread-as') which I still maintain would be really handy (much more so than the existing ones, which are limited by the inconsistency of the argument ordering in Elisp).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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and-let* is useless In-Reply-To: <jwvbjzhasvw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier via's message of "Fri, 18 Oct 2024 19:42:44 -0400") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbjzhasvw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 09:07:42 +0200 Message-ID: <87r08akk75.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::130; envelope-from=arstoffel@HIDDEN; helo=mail-lf1-x130.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 at 19:42, Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote: >>> [ I think we have too many (if|when|and)-let(*) for our own good: we >>> should pick some winners and deprecate the other ones. ] >> AFAIR the non-star versions exist for backward compatibility only - so I >> would rather get rid of these. Parallel existence of these non-star >> vs. star versions should be a temporary state, it complicates the matter >> for an epsilon gain. > > 100% agreement. Can we `make-obsolete` the non-star versions? Wait... The point of make-obsolete is to generate warning so people migrate their code, right? So why not warn on the weird (single-variable binding) use of the non-star version, to eventually remove that syntax as well as the star variants? I always type `if-let' because it looks cleaner and saves one indentation column (which are purely cosmetic reasons), but also I think it would be weird to have a something* when there's no accompanying something. >>> I could see a use for something called `and-let(*)` but without a BODY, >>> for the purpose of remove a level of parens and indentation: >>> >>> (and-let* >>> (x1 (foo1)) >>> (x2 (foo2))) >>> >>> i.s.o >>> >>> (and-let* >>> ((x1 (foo1)) >>> (x2 (foo2)))) >> >> Ugh! - I could not imagine anything with more potential for confusion as >> removing the paren around a list of bindings. > > FWIW, I agree, I don't like that either. Sure, I guess nobody wants that, but this idea is getting closer to a `thread-while' macro (variation of `thread-as') which I still maintain would be really handy (much more so than the existing ones, which are limited by the inconsistency of the argument ordering in Elisp).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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That way I've my peace with that syntax. Anyway, removing `and-let*' would be equally unsatisfying, and obviously, at least one the two points will remain unless we change the syntax radically - or remove `and-let*' :-( > - There's a special syntax where the final binding can drop the variable > name (because of the previous point), which makes for an odd syntax > > (and-let* ((a (fooa)) > (b (foob a)) > ((weird-call a b)))) That I feel too. As an alternative we made the pseudo variable _ work without compiler warnings. But one gets used to the variable-less syntax. It's too handy... > So the use with BODY is redundant with `when-let*` and the use without > BODY is quirky (and still redundant with `when-let*`, of course). I see your points, but don't consider them as such a big problem. Anyway, without having something that is obviously better the discussion remains quite philosophical. And replacing calls of `and-let*' with equivalent calls of `when-let*' doesn't make code easier to read, IMO. > 100% agreement. Can we `make-obsolete` the non-star versions? I hope we can. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2024 03:38:40 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 18 23:38:40 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40754 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t20IZ-0005gI-RA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 23:38:40 -0400 Received: from sendmail.purelymail.com ([34.202.193.197]:49772) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <spwhitton@HIDDEN>) id 1t20IX-0005g4-EM for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 23:38:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=M7mFzjgMaNzwayEN/QCFeLRZn2E+NvYNY+sr4nSjGRj21J/cx9wZizn2iL2jhm8qlgojLwcQzz4pCYQEWxSEOY+QDdAL0CfB3Fxstzwn5ku6RoO+wXuadgHo4xWkUVbvZpIWrMc4wlFYvfDiXC7SsTmX0k524SMrMxV1muGsBUg8rwVYjTWRi2UXORmyHMaCWSVUIOL1CAUXGYx1GKJfQ6M/SVEuxSXmG0SInNQcG+Prg96HMDTX3ELr64d9uchCMFuO7pmJh2vXUe0T8Ur6lL82fOMdxS6xpH0BxvfiFA2Za2MTptDAkVbuBCzFPg21lbLK5pC6sCP8FvEt5jsi/w==; s=purelymail1; d=spwhitton.name; v=1; bh=5Zf/DuoYZbX56SB0n9F5LUyUmaaZffBFoHJFJA4i3qc=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=k75OasLMh4nguvbXt2QVwZU5I54DtsqcZ2t3CLDuRJChSE/MjNL+pSu0fIkUG4E71KM8SeEqEsAKaR9xJgZLM3zR9YwA6TH1SgICyDOuScJ9YVKAkoDYPjmlQtSJq3XwYJZu3MIExXW0dB1g/wSLOwOIab+OXZk1920loPTaz7jsZI7qpU0D5J6CJNIYdUD4SrV9kM2Kw1aBAPRwxPJrxd5MUVApuYewM9ifITC5xYwwU4uLfUnqtoRFbMyKu4RsiX7SAjdcOo5FuwKmER5QL0qK5J1TtnEpvkTRNgc0h2Sx354MkEPPH3IZY0kRnL+I5+5RIO3d1WMgvpdsmoDiiw==; s=purelymail1; d=purelymail.com; v=1; bh=5Zf/DuoYZbX56SB0n9F5LUyUmaaZffBFoHJFJA4i3qc=; h=Feedback-ID:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date; Feedback-ID: 20115:3760:null:purelymail X-Pm-Original-To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Received: by smtp.purelymail.com (Purelymail SMTP) with ESMTPSA id -2082500998; (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Sat, 19 Oct 2024 03:38:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 320DA7E6817; Sat, 19 Oct 2024 11:38:01 +0800 (CST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; and-let* is useless In-Reply-To: <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen via's message of "Fri, 18 Oct 2024 04:11:23 +0200") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 11:38:01 +0800 Message-ID: <87froszrs6.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On Fri 18 Oct 2024 at 04:11am +02, Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote: > `and-let*'s purpose is to express conditions, `when-let*'s is > conditional evaluation. We have `and-let*' and `when-let*' for the > same reason we have `and' and `when'. See prior discussions. Right. The Lisp convention of using `when' for pure control flow and `and' for returning values is a good aid to readability. If we don't have and-let*, then we can't use this convention in the case that we also want to bind variables. So, I am very keen for and-let* to remain. >> [ I think we have too many (if|when|and)-let(*) for our own good: we >> should pick some winners and deprecate the other ones. ] > > AFAIR the non-star versions exist for backward compatibility only - so > I would rather get rid of these. Parallel existence of these non-star > vs. star versions should be a temporary state, it complicates the > matter for an epsilon gain. Yes. I would like us to move forward with removing the non-star ones. I believe there was a previous attempt to deprecate them but it had to be backed out. But maybe now is the time to try again. -- Sean Whitton
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; and-let* is useless
In-Reply-To: <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Fri, 18
Oct 2024 04:11:23 +0200")
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References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 19:42:44 -0400
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>> Can we kill/deprecate this?
> `and-let*'s purpose is to express conditions, `when-let*'s is
> conditional evaluation. We have `and-let*' and `when-let*' for the same
> reason we have `and' and `when'. See prior discussions.
But there isn't the same "historical" support that justifies having
both, and the syntax&semantics of `and-let*` is just weird:
- Why allow a BODY if the motivation is to mirror the normal `and`?
If you want a BODY, use `when-let*`.
- What's the use of the final variable binding since (assuming you
don't use BODY) that variable is never used:
(and-let* ((a (fooa))
(b (foob a))
(i-m-useless (fooc a b))))
- There's a special syntax where the final binding can drop the variable
name (because of the previous point), which makes for an odd syntax
(and-let* ((a (fooa))
(b (foob a))
((weird-call a b))))
So the use with BODY is redundant with `when-let*` and the use without
BODY is quirky (and still redundant with `when-let*`, of course).
>> [ I think we have too many (if|when|and)-let(*) for our own good: we
>> should pick some winners and deprecate the other ones. ]
> AFAIR the non-star versions exist for backward compatibility only - so I
> would rather get rid of these. Parallel existence of these non-star
> vs. star versions should be a temporary state, it complicates the matter
> for an epsilon gain.
100% agreement. Can we `make-obsolete` the non-star versions?
>> I could see a use for something called `and-let(*)` but without a BODY,
>> for the purpose of remove a level of parens and indentation:
>>
>> (and-let*
>> (x1 (foo1))
>> (x2 (foo2)))
>>
>> i.s.o
>>
>> (and-let*
>> ((x1 (foo1))
>> (x2 (foo2))))
>
> Ugh! - I could not imagine anything with more potential for confusion as
> removing the paren around a list of bindings.
FWIW, I agree, I don't like that either.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 73853) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Oct 2024 02:11:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 17 22:11:10 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36485 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1t1cSM-0001oC-Bo for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Oct 2024 22:11:10 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:49189) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1t1cSJ-0001ng-Cm for 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Oct 2024 22:11:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1729217433; x=1729822233; i=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; bh=qvjaFFPKocpr1ubNb88x4si3Rz5nHOcAlNyDzscnPfM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=FvnnUM4oLJWcabig0c5fPfcIIiYz4YIjJqtSsXbZ8McWXiszh6knzlRwGTSdS+QZ nUlFMqiqY56mRK7QzrDvjl7wMda3IlMjbGhe3UR3UYkJsuwAtae3NLL028X3O7XBb fWPKpKY+XHcDTeMyLoKtOVqKwbkTrWPS1aSd6Vt7Bp5TVOd58nQphzTKpSfT0m/yc nr528ywIdZOec9Ur5hAOQJvF/yuhEnHwXVEHevMK9wJieMqDHtbyQKz5S5vc4ggD8 3q/xjYlk6kt3dSvKjMq9gPGbntYej3lQjWLhtcvjOrwDxxUnMKqL3/lxb24M3IT2B TGXm0Lp4D4HzLVWgbw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MC0LH-1tDUQ93FKn-00CRDb; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 04:10:32 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#73853: 31.0.50; and-let* is useless In-Reply-To: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier via's message of "Thu, 17 Oct 2024 12:27:39 -0400") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 04:11:23 +0200 Message-ID: <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fqPrUTvdy7WFcGiYL7MBolt+TahdoZidxr5Cc3BcycjE3oF5EZm j9GEIFNeljSA2OC5lV7UiL3qPVub3QOLbrJYi4+w5y4TZqSE1vBk7jAvg2sOJ+OksQDwIc2 wmzMx4AXNscOSXcdLBGqxuWlMC7bZscWVi2Akze6l3G6RO1x8p4fS0SE/w6F2Q3bwrp8azJ +vkEqb+vgv+J0v0TYl5CQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:k4mOxB2oqBI=;r+B8OGY/4PmcW1nFSNo6CQ4RZeX ozR/OeJrks4CkmjoXkYCmvVtZH8wBwHD0mPrQkmfXIemqKxAPKbqMu6UEgV7DdbTc2huIkkOW 5oKiah1tskY9rKbVOzcRCCUmS3KfyKxPOxEgoQMvRo7XjiIsvyqyns2+ncOS/MJ5VEGXZsNv9 6E4TgQNWcyFyYdTQ0c3h4iyg1Vr2FT4yumzQ1XtxLiPMiE31IiYQCcZ2kMHqvBe7fp+wJK/Lq dfQAelkFG8FEFnOCS38xzkY6PuJ+P88MbbFazGxu4wIcNa+wPQ8Nn/nbeW7hqlfvBD47ZQYTC fBE9PBMKORj3Zg0my3NuU9CZGELNZDeoOkbfb4s8sJ9GsJaQEK9wY5OUyQQA+9ftQlEQ3yAL+ lowP1t1pRv3WeJXDcykR24L7eRZAyxZ0yeQXg6AnpLCNi5qgxhfaMByrCFTqx+5x4MXoCdQnx UWC5rYpTT/30khe8VQgKDH8eGAitOYoO1OePY5TW2gMSPRd0AgkuKxBvljE6q5vsr0kzEKBli dB64ba5mnfl/vjuIP/NwUyfpuB/UF05sRfQPgxR5VaLnYq8yN7Z7mBunhEY/xGnnYnCmF/flW Tnf3BqqAGG1gQwmx611EID0jTexXggTXsxwCNee5yMM7KhjEi/6d2BeVgG9PQ031dNMDenVR1 NVVY5fdpiRgCCIposn33iJFdXYhdl8USB6WLA1EYMeZKU8d9vTZhyzEBObwLClv4zCGLGULti aShgzIDjPBIfmMyCmH+DMSqhuiMXA1TbeUnHubVplThdQt7MbZA8wH7vjnQU36oqpiqwCArZt 4KJlWt5gBMmyGEfrtg0Qq2+Q== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73853 Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > Can we kill/deprecate this? `and-let*'s purpose is to express conditions, `when-let*'s is conditional evaluation. We have `and-let*' and `when-let*' for the same reason we have `and' and `when'. See prior discussions. > [ I think we have too many (if|when|and)-let(*) for our own good: we > should pick some winners and deprecate the other ones. ] AFAIR the non-star versions exist for backward compatibility only - so I would rather get rid of these. Parallel existence of these non-star vs. star versions should be a temporary state, it complicates the matter for an epsilon gain. > I could see a use for something called `and-let(*)` but without a BODY, > for the purpose of remove a level of parens and indentation: > > (and-let* > (x1 (foo1)) > (x2 (foo2))) > > i.s.o > > (and-let* > ((x1 (foo1)) > (x2 (foo2)))) Ugh! - I could not imagine anything with more potential for confusion as removing the paren around a list of bindings. This would add one more year-lasting round of discussing these constructs. If you do this, please call it `and-let*?@!' so than everybody is warned. Michael.
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and-let* is useless In-Reply-To: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier via's message of "Thu, 17 Oct 2024 12:27:39 -0400") References: <jwv4j5aeltw.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 04:11:23 +0200 Message-ID: <87a5f2xir8.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fqPrUTvdy7WFcGiYL7MBolt+TahdoZidxr5Cc3BcycjE3oF5EZm j9GEIFNeljSA2OC5lV7UiL3qPVub3QOLbrJYi4+w5y4TZqSE1vBk7jAvg2sOJ+OksQDwIc2 wmzMx4AXNscOSXcdLBGqxuWlMC7bZscWVi2Akze6l3G6RO1x8p4fS0SE/w6F2Q3bwrp8azJ +vkEqb+vgv+J0v0TYl5CQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:k4mOxB2oqBI=;r+B8OGY/4PmcW1nFSNo6CQ4RZeX ozR/OeJrks4CkmjoXkYCmvVtZH8wBwHD0mPrQkmfXIemqKxAPKbqMu6UEgV7DdbTc2huIkkOW 5oKiah1tskY9rKbVOzcRCCUmS3KfyKxPOxEgoQMvRo7XjiIsvyqyns2+ncOS/MJ5VEGXZsNv9 6E4TgQNWcyFyYdTQ0c3h4iyg1Vr2FT4yumzQ1XtxLiPMiE31IiYQCcZ2kMHqvBe7fp+wJK/Lq dfQAelkFG8FEFnOCS38xzkY6PuJ+P88MbbFazGxu4wIcNa+wPQ8Nn/nbeW7hqlfvBD47ZQYTC fBE9PBMKORj3Zg0my3NuU9CZGELNZDeoOkbfb4s8sJ9GsJaQEK9wY5OUyQQA+9ftQlEQ3yAL+ lowP1t1pRv3WeJXDcykR24L7eRZAyxZ0yeQXg6AnpLCNi5qgxhfaMByrCFTqx+5x4MXoCdQnx UWC5rYpTT/30khe8VQgKDH8eGAitOYoO1OePY5TW2gMSPRd0AgkuKxBvljE6q5vsr0kzEKBli dB64ba5mnfl/vjuIP/NwUyfpuB/UF05sRfQPgxR5VaLnYq8yN7Z7mBunhEY/xGnnYnCmF/flW Tnf3BqqAGG1gQwmx611EID0jTexXggTXsxwCNee5yMM7KhjEi/6d2BeVgG9PQ031dNMDenVR1 NVVY5fdpiRgCCIposn33iJFdXYhdl8USB6WLA1EYMeZKU8d9vTZhyzEBObwLClv4zCGLGULti aShgzIDjPBIfmMyCmH+DMSqhuiMXA1TbeUnHubVplThdQt7MbZA8wH7vjnQU36oqpiqwCArZt 4KJlWt5gBMmyGEfrtg0Qq2+Q== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.72.192.78; envelope-from=michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -40 X-Spam_score: -4.1 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1.277, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 73853 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > Can we kill/deprecate this? `and-let*'s purpose is to express conditions, `when-let*'s is conditional evaluation. We have `and-let*' and `when-let*' for the same reason we have `and' and `when'. See prior discussions. > [ I think we have too many (if|when|and)-let(*) for our own good: we > should pick some winners and deprecate the other ones. ] AFAIR the non-star versions exist for backward compatibility only - so I would rather get rid of these. Parallel existence of these non-star vs. star versions should be a temporary state, it complicates the matter for an epsilon gain. > I could see a use for something called `and-let(*)` but without a BODY, > for the purpose of remove a level of parens and indentation: > > (and-let* > (x1 (foo1)) > (x2 (foo2))) > > i.s.o > > (and-let* > ((x1 (foo1)) > (x2 (foo2)))) Ugh! - I could not imagine anything with more potential for confusion as removing the paren around a list of bindings. This would add one more year-lasting round of discussing these constructs. If you do this, please call it `and-let*?@!' so than everybody is warned. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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(Are there really any winners? ;-))
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 31.0.50; and-let* is useless
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Package: Emacs
Version: 31.0.50
According to its docstring, `and-let*` does:
Bind variables according to VARLIST and conditionally evaluate BODY.
Like `when-let*', except if BODY is empty and all the bindings
are non-nil, then the result is the value of the last binding.
IOW the only time it's different from `when-let*` is when BODY is empty,
i.e. its only "feature" compares to `when-let*` is that
(and-let* (..BINDINGS..
(last (binding))))
is equivalent to
(and-let* (..BINDINGS..)
(binding))
Why would anyone write the first instead of the second, other than out
of masochism? Can we kill/deprecate this?
[ I think we have too many (if|when|and)-let(*) for our own good: we
should pick some winners and deprecate the other ones. ]
I could see a use for something called `and-let(*)` but without a BODY,
for the purpose of remove a level of parens and indentation:
(and-let*
(x1 (foo1))
(x2 (foo2)))
i.s.o
(and-let*
((x1 (foo1))
(x2 (foo2))))
- Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:monnier@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.monnier@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#73853; Package emacs.
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