GNU bug report logs - #77169
[PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'

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Package: emacs; Reported by: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>; Keywords: patch; Done: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
In-Reply-To: <86ecyg85vz.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 29 Mar
 2025 13:53:36 +0300")
References: <87r02pl7y5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <C079BBB8-F545-4251-AD75-7BCFFEAF354E@HIDDEN>
 <87h63f251y.fsf@HIDDEN> <86ecyg85vz.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 12:27:59 +0100
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  eliz@HIDDEN
>> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 16:19:05 +0100
>> 
>> Howard Melman <hmelman@HIDDEN> writes:
>> 
>> > Daniel Mendler via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss
>> > army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
>> >
>> >>>> Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
>> >>>> have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.
>> >
>> >> +(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
>> >> +  "If non-nil, sow `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.
>> >
>> > s/sow/show/
>> 
>> Fixed. Updated patch attached to this mail.
>
> Thanks, installed on master, and closing the bug.

Thanks!
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 13:53:36 +0300
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87h63f251y.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Daniel Mendler
 on Wed, 26 Mar 2025 16:19:05 +0100)
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
References: <87r02pl7y5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <C079BBB8-F545-4251-AD75-7BCFFEAF354E@HIDDEN>
 <87h63f251y.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  eliz@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 16:19:05 +0100
> 
> Howard Melman <hmelman@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > Daniel Mendler via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss
> > army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
> >
> >>>> Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
> >>>> have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.
> >
> >> +(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
> >> +  "If non-nil, sow `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.
> >
> > s/sow/show/
> 
> Fixed. Updated patch attached to this mail.

Thanks, installed on master, and closing the bug.
Notification sent to Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.
Reply sent to Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
To: Howard Melman <hmelman@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
In-Reply-To: <C079BBB8-F545-4251-AD75-7BCFFEAF354E@HIDDEN> (Howard Melman's
 message of "Sun, 23 Mar 2025 10:29:33 -0400")
References: <87r02pl7y5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <C079BBB8-F545-4251-AD75-7BCFFEAF354E@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 16:19:05 +0100
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Howard Melman <hmelman@HIDDEN> writes:

> Daniel Mendler via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss
> army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>>> Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
>>>> have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.
>
>> +(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
>> +  "If non-nil, sow `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.
>
> s/sow/show/

Fixed. Updated patch attached to this mail.

Daniel


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename=0001-New-Eldoc-function-eldoc-show-help-at-pt.patch

From d675280c2ee379faa33b7c65cbcf04ac5beabc93 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 10:29:45 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `eldoc-show-help-at-pt'

Show help-at-pt string via Eldoc as an alternative to the
`help-at-pt-display-when-idle' timer.  The help-at-pt timer competes
with Eldoc for the echo area, such that the two mechanisms do not work
well together.  Therefore when using Eldoc, the setting
`eldoc-help-at-pt' may be preferable.

* lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el (eldoc-help-at-pt): New customization option.
(eldoc-show-help-at-pt): New Eldoc function.
(eldoc-documentation-functions): Register the new function.
* lisp/help-at-pt.el (help-at-pt-display-when-idle): Mention
`eldoc-help-at-pt' in the docstring.
* doc/emacs/help.texi: Document `eldoc-help-at-pt'.
* etc/NEWS: Announce the change.
---
 doc/emacs/help.texi      |  4 +++-
 etc/NEWS                 |  5 +++++
 lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el | 15 ++++++++++++++-
 lisp/help-at-pt.el       |  7 ++++++-
 4 files changed, 28 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/emacs/help.texi b/doc/emacs/help.texi
index 5c2eabb02d6..6ea7b5783c2 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/help.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/help.texi
@@ -857,9 +857,11 @@ Help Echo
 @kindex C-h .
 @findex display-local-help
 @vindex help-at-pt-display-when-idle
+@vindex eldoc-help-at-pt
   On terminals that don't support mouse-tracking, you can display the
 help text for active buffer text at point by typing @kbd{C-h .}
 (@code{display-local-help}).  This shows the help text in the echo
 area.  To display help text automatically whenever it is available at
 point, set the variable @code{help-at-pt-display-when-idle} to
-@code{t}.
+@code{t}.  If you use Eldoc, set the variable @code{eldoc-help-at-pt}
+to @code{t} instead.
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index c8797cf74ec..4d559565011 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -427,6 +427,11 @@ need to set it with 'setopt' for it to take an effect.  If the docstring
 doesn't already mention 'setopt', the 'describe-variable' command will
 now add a note about this automatically.
 
++++
+** New user option 'eldoc-help-at-pt' to show help at point via Eldoc.
+When enabled, display the 'help-at-pt-kbd-string' via Eldoc.  This
+setting is an alternative to 'help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.
+
 
 * Editing Changes in Emacs 31.1
 
diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
index 85fb6c780e2..2b5d5cc0c8d 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
@@ -138,6 +138,13 @@ eldoc-echo-area-prefer-doc-buffer
                  (const :tag "Skip echo area if truncating" maybe))
   :version "28.1")
 
+(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
+  "If non-nil, show `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.
+This setting is an alternative to `help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.  If
+the value is non-nil, `eldoc-show-help-at-pt' will show help-at-point
+via Eldoc."
+  :type 'boolean)
+
 (defface eldoc-highlight-function-argument
   '((t (:inherit bold)))
   "Face used for the argument at point in a function's argument list.
@@ -410,7 +417,7 @@ eldoc-display-message-no-interference-p
                       (overlay-end show-paren--overlay)))))))
 
 
-(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions nil
+(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions (list #'eldoc-show-help-at-pt)
   "Hook of functions that produce doc strings.
 
 A doc string is typically relevant if point is on a function-like
@@ -957,6 +964,12 @@ eldoc-print-current-symbol-info
              (setq eldoc--last-request-state token)
              (eldoc--invoke-strategy nil))))))
 
+(defun eldoc-show-help-at-pt (&rest _)
+  "Show help at point via Eldoc if `eldoc-help-at-pt' is non-nil.
+Intended for `eldoc-documentation-functions' (which see)."
+  (when-let* ((help (and eldoc-help-at-pt (help-at-pt-kbd-string))))
+    (format "Help: %s" (substitute-command-keys help))))
+
 
 ;; This section only affects ElDoc output to the echo area, as in
 ;; `eldoc-display-in-echo-area'.
diff --git a/lisp/help-at-pt.el b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
index 68054016dc5..094f2b788fe 100644
--- a/lisp/help-at-pt.el
+++ b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
@@ -191,7 +191,12 @@ help-at-pt-display-when-idle
 enabling buffer local values.  It sets the actual value to nil.
 Thus, Custom distinguishes between a nil value and other values
 that disable the feature, which Custom identifies with `never'.
-The default is `never'."
+The default is `never'.
+
+Eldoc uses the echo area to display documentation.  As such it
+conflicts with `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' due to the use of
+the echo area.  If you use Eldoc, consider setting
+`eldoc-help-at-pt' instead."
   :group 'help-at-pt
   :type '(choice  (const :tag "Always"
 			 :format "%t\n%h"
-- 
2.47.2


--=-=-=--
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bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
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Daniel Mendler via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss
army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:

>>> Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
>>> have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.

> +(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
> +  "If non-nil, sow `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.

s/sow/show/

-- 

Howard
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Daniel Mendler via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss
army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:

>>> Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
>>> have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.

> +(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
> +  "If non-nil, sow `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.

s/sow/show/

-- 

Howard
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
In-Reply-To: <86r02ogtzx.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 23 Mar
 2025 08:07:30 +0200")
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 21:56:27 +0100
>> 
>> >> > Also, shouldn't we have a user option to turn this on in ElDoc?
>> >> 
>> >> Not sure if we need an option given that it is easy to add the function
>> >> to the list, or remove it, if the function is enabled by default.
>> >
>> > It might be easy fore you and me, but not for users who are not Lisp
>> > programmers.
>> 
>> Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
>> have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> --- a/etc/NEWS
>> +++ b/etc/NEWS
>> @@ -415,6 +415,11 @@ need to set it with 'setopt' for it to take an effect.  If the docstring
>>  doesn't already mention 'setopt', the 'describe-variable' command will
>>  now add a note about this automatically.
>>  
>> +---
>
> This should be "+++", since you've updated the manuals.
>
>> +(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
>> +  "Show `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.
>
> "If non-nil, show `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc."
>
>> +This setting is an alternative to `help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.  If
>> +the variable is t, enable the `eldoc-help-at-pt-function'."
>
> "Enable" is inaccurate, since it's enabled by default, it just doesn't
> do anything when the variable is nil.  So something like
>
>   If the value is non-nil, `eldoc-help-at-pt-function' will show
>   help-at-point via Eldoc.
>
>> -(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions nil
>> +(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions (list #'eldoc-help-at-pt-function)
>>    "Hook of functions that produce doc strings.
>>  
>>  A doc string is typically relevant if point is on a function-like
>> @@ -957,6 +963,12 @@ eldoc-print-current-symbol-info
>>               (setq eldoc--last-request-state token)
>>               (eldoc--invoke-strategy nil))))))
>>  
>> +(defun eldoc-help-at-pt-function (&rest _)
>
> I thought symbols that end in "-function" are usually variables whose
> value is the function, is that not so?  So maybe call this
> eldoc-show-help-at-pt instead?
>
>> --- a/lisp/help-at-pt.el
>> +++ b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
>> @@ -191,7 +191,11 @@ help-at-pt-display-when-idle
>>  enabling buffer local values.  It sets the actual value to nil.
>>  Thus, Custom distinguishes between a nil value and other values
>>  that disable the feature, which Custom identifies with `never'.
>> -The default is `never'."
>> +The default is `never'.
>> +
>> +Eldoc uses the echo area to display help at point.
>
> I'd say "Eldoc uses the echo area to display documentation" instead,
> since the conflict between help-at-pt-display-when-idle and Eldoc is
> due to the use of echo-area, not because they both show help-at-pt.

Thanks. I have updated the patch accordingly. The updated patch is
attached to this mail.

Daniel


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename=0001-New-Eldoc-function-eldoc-show-help-at-pt.patch

From 2211dcaa7dc0e38ac8e0ee56302a58a2b5e7f2b0 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 10:29:45 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `eldoc-show-help-at-pt'

Show help-at-pt string via Eldoc as an alternative to the
`help-at-pt-display-when-idle' timer.  The help-at-pt timer competes
with Eldoc for the echo area, such that the two mechanisms do not work
well together.  Therefore when using Eldoc, the setting
`eldoc-help-at-pt' may be preferable.

* lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el (eldoc-help-at-pt): New customization option.
(eldoc-show-help-at-pt): New Eldoc function.
(eldoc-documentation-functions): Register the new function.
* lisp/help-at-pt.el (help-at-pt-display-when-idle): Mention
`eldoc-help-at-pt' in the docstring.
* doc/emacs/help.texi: Document `eldoc-help-at-pt'.
* etc/NEWS: Announce the change.
---
 doc/emacs/help.texi      |  4 +++-
 etc/NEWS                 |  5 +++++
 lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el | 15 ++++++++++++++-
 lisp/help-at-pt.el       |  7 ++++++-
 4 files changed, 28 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/emacs/help.texi b/doc/emacs/help.texi
index 5c2eabb02d6..6ea7b5783c2 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/help.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/help.texi
@@ -857,9 +857,11 @@ Help Echo
 @kindex C-h .
 @findex display-local-help
 @vindex help-at-pt-display-when-idle
+@vindex eldoc-help-at-pt
   On terminals that don't support mouse-tracking, you can display the
 help text for active buffer text at point by typing @kbd{C-h .}
 (@code{display-local-help}).  This shows the help text in the echo
 area.  To display help text automatically whenever it is available at
 point, set the variable @code{help-at-pt-display-when-idle} to
-@code{t}.
+@code{t}.  If you use Eldoc, set the variable @code{eldoc-help-at-pt}
+to @code{t} instead.
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index c8797cf74ec..4d559565011 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -427,6 +427,11 @@ need to set it with 'setopt' for it to take an effect.  If the docstring
 doesn't already mention 'setopt', the 'describe-variable' command will
 now add a note about this automatically.
 
++++
+** New user option 'eldoc-help-at-pt' to show help at point via Eldoc.
+When enabled, display the 'help-at-pt-kbd-string' via Eldoc.  This
+setting is an alternative to 'help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.
+
 
 * Editing Changes in Emacs 31.1
 
diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
index 85fb6c780e2..451ed059fb4 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
@@ -138,6 +138,13 @@ eldoc-echo-area-prefer-doc-buffer
                  (const :tag "Skip echo area if truncating" maybe))
   :version "28.1")
 
+(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
+  "If non-nil, sow `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.
+This setting is an alternative to `help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.  If
+the value is non-nil, `eldoc-show-help-at-pt' will show help-at-point
+via Eldoc."
+  :type 'boolean)
+
 (defface eldoc-highlight-function-argument
   '((t (:inherit bold)))
   "Face used for the argument at point in a function's argument list.
@@ -410,7 +417,7 @@ eldoc-display-message-no-interference-p
                       (overlay-end show-paren--overlay)))))))
 
 
-(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions nil
+(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions (list #'eldoc-show-help-at-pt)
   "Hook of functions that produce doc strings.
 
 A doc string is typically relevant if point is on a function-like
@@ -957,6 +964,12 @@ eldoc-print-current-symbol-info
              (setq eldoc--last-request-state token)
              (eldoc--invoke-strategy nil))))))
 
+(defun eldoc-show-help-at-pt (&rest _)
+  "Show help at point via Eldoc if `eldoc-help-at-pt' is non-nil.
+Intended for `eldoc-documentation-functions' (which see)."
+  (when-let* ((help (and eldoc-help-at-pt (help-at-pt-kbd-string))))
+    (format "Help: %s" (substitute-command-keys help))))
+
 
 ;; This section only affects ElDoc output to the echo area, as in
 ;; `eldoc-display-in-echo-area'.
diff --git a/lisp/help-at-pt.el b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
index 68054016dc5..094f2b788fe 100644
--- a/lisp/help-at-pt.el
+++ b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
@@ -191,7 +191,12 @@ help-at-pt-display-when-idle
 enabling buffer local values.  It sets the actual value to nil.
 Thus, Custom distinguishes between a nil value and other values
 that disable the feature, which Custom identifies with `never'.
-The default is `never'."
+The default is `never'.
+
+Eldoc uses the echo area to display documentation.  As such it
+conflicts with `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' due to the use of
+the echo area.  If you use Eldoc, consider setting
+`eldoc-help-at-pt' instead."
   :group 'help-at-pt
   :type '(choice  (const :tag "Always"
 			 :format "%t\n%h"
-- 
2.47.2


--=-=-=--
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 08:07:30 +0200
Message-Id: <86r02ogtzx.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87jz8gbx8k.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Daniel Mendler
 on Sat, 22 Mar 2025 21:56:27 +0100)
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
References: <87r02pl7y5.fsf@HIDDEN> <86iko1jp1d.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87sen5b8xi.fsf@HIDDEN> <86sen5i671.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87jz8gbx8k.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 21:56:27 +0100
> 
> >> > Also, shouldn't we have a user option to turn this on in ElDoc?
> >> 
> >> Not sure if we need an option given that it is easy to add the function
> >> to the list, or remove it, if the function is enabled by default.
> >
> > It might be easy fore you and me, but not for users who are not Lisp
> > programmers.
> 
> Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
> have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.

Thanks.

> --- a/etc/NEWS
> +++ b/etc/NEWS
> @@ -415,6 +415,11 @@ need to set it with 'setopt' for it to take an effect.  If the docstring
>  doesn't already mention 'setopt', the 'describe-variable' command will
>  now add a note about this automatically.
>  
> +---

This should be "+++", since you've updated the manuals.

> +(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
> +  "Show `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.

"If non-nil, show `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc."

> +This setting is an alternative to `help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.  If
> +the variable is t, enable the `eldoc-help-at-pt-function'."

"Enable" is inaccurate, since it's enabled by default, it just doesn't
do anything when the variable is nil.  So something like

  If the value is non-nil, `eldoc-help-at-pt-function' will show
  help-at-point via Eldoc.

> -(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions nil
> +(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions (list #'eldoc-help-at-pt-function)
>    "Hook of functions that produce doc strings.
>  
>  A doc string is typically relevant if point is on a function-like
> @@ -957,6 +963,12 @@ eldoc-print-current-symbol-info
>               (setq eldoc--last-request-state token)
>               (eldoc--invoke-strategy nil))))))
>  
> +(defun eldoc-help-at-pt-function (&rest _)

I thought symbols that end in "-function" are usually variables whose
value is the function, is that not so?  So maybe call this
eldoc-show-help-at-pt instead?

> --- a/lisp/help-at-pt.el
> +++ b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
> @@ -191,7 +191,11 @@ help-at-pt-display-when-idle
>  enabling buffer local values.  It sets the actual value to nil.
>  Thus, Custom distinguishes between a nil value and other values
>  that disable the feature, which Custom identifies with `never'.
> -The default is `never'."
> +The default is `never'.
> +
> +Eldoc uses the echo area to display help at point.

I'd say "Eldoc uses the echo area to display documentation" instead,
since the conflict between help-at-pt-display-when-idle and Eldoc is
due to the use of echo-area, not because they both show help-at-pt.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
In-Reply-To: <86sen5i671.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 22 Mar
 2025 14:46:26 +0200")
References: <87r02pl7y5.fsf@HIDDEN> <86iko1jp1d.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87sen5b8xi.fsf@HIDDEN> <86sen5i671.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 21:56:27 +0100
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 12:29:13 +0100
>> 
>> > Thanks, but please also reflect this feature in the doc string of
>> > help-at-pt-display-when-idle and in the Emacs user manual (where that
>> > option is described).
>> 
>> The question is if `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' should be marked
>> obsolete in favor of the Eldoc mechanism to avoid conflicts. Eldoc is
>> even preloaded these days, so the de-facto standard for documentation at
>> point.
>
> Users can still disable ElDoc, and if they do, perhaps they would like
> to have help-at-pt-display-when-idle.
>
> We could start the process of obsoleting help-at-pt-display-when-idle,
> if we think it should be superseded by ElDoc, but that process takes
> time, and in the meantime we should assume people are still using
> help-at-pt-display-when-idle and need to be aware of the replacement,
> and vice versa.

Agree.

>> > Also, shouldn't we have a user option to turn this on in ElDoc?
>> 
>> Not sure if we need an option given that it is easy to add the function
>> to the list, or remove it, if the function is enabled by default.
>
> It might be easy fore you and me, but not for users who are not Lisp
> programmers.

Okay. I have attached an updated version of the patch to this mail. I
have added a customization option (off by default) and a NEWS entry.

Daniel


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename=0001-New-Eldoc-function-eldoc-help-at-pt-function.patch

From 8a70fb1df597257ff552a171e5da53c7bde8a057 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 10:29:45 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `eldoc-help-at-pt-function'

Show help-at-pt string via Eldoc as an alternative to the
`help-at-pt-display-when-idle' timer.  The help-at-pt timer competes
with Eldoc for the echo area, such that the two mechanisms do not work
well together.  Therefore when using Eldoc, the setting
`eldoc-help-at-pt' may be preferable.

* lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el (eldoc-help-at-pt): New customization option.
(eldoc-help-at-pt-function): New Eldoc function.
(eldoc-documentation-functions): Register the new function.
* lisp/help-at-pt.el (help-at-pt-display-when-idle): Mention
`eldoc-help-at-pt' in the docstring.
* doc/emacs/help.texi: Document `eldoc-help-at-pt'.
* etc/NEWS: Announce the change.
---
 doc/emacs/help.texi      |  4 +++-
 etc/NEWS                 |  5 +++++
 lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el | 14 +++++++++++++-
 lisp/help-at-pt.el       |  6 +++++-
 4 files changed, 26 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/emacs/help.texi b/doc/emacs/help.texi
index 5c2eabb02d6..6ea7b5783c2 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/help.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/help.texi
@@ -857,9 +857,11 @@ Help Echo
 @kindex C-h .
 @findex display-local-help
 @vindex help-at-pt-display-when-idle
+@vindex eldoc-help-at-pt
   On terminals that don't support mouse-tracking, you can display the
 help text for active buffer text at point by typing @kbd{C-h .}
 (@code{display-local-help}).  This shows the help text in the echo
 area.  To display help text automatically whenever it is available at
 point, set the variable @code{help-at-pt-display-when-idle} to
-@code{t}.
+@code{t}.  If you use Eldoc, set the variable @code{eldoc-help-at-pt}
+to @code{t} instead.
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index 3b14a87dd42..8b81a130c4d 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -415,6 +415,11 @@ need to set it with 'setopt' for it to take an effect.  If the docstring
 doesn't already mention 'setopt', the 'describe-variable' command will
 now add a note about this automatically.
 
+---
+** New user option 'eldoc-help-at-pt' to show help at point via Eldoc.
+When enabled, display the 'help-at-pt-kbd-string' via Eldoc.  This
+setting is an alternative to 'help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.
+
 
 * Editing Changes in Emacs 31.1
 
diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
index 966158024dd..d510877d0b2 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el
@@ -138,6 +138,12 @@ eldoc-echo-area-prefer-doc-buffer
                  (const :tag "Skip echo area if truncating" maybe))
   :version "28.1")
 
+(defcustom eldoc-help-at-pt nil
+  "Show `help-at-pt-kbd-string' at point via Eldoc.
+This setting is an alternative to `help-at-pt-display-when-idle'.  If
+the variable is t, enable the `eldoc-help-at-pt-function'."
+  :type 'boolean)
+
 (defface eldoc-highlight-function-argument
   '((t (:inherit bold)))
   "Face used for the argument at point in a function's argument list.
@@ -410,7 +416,7 @@ eldoc-display-message-no-interference-p
                       (overlay-end show-paren--overlay)))))))
 
 
-(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions nil
+(defvar eldoc-documentation-functions (list #'eldoc-help-at-pt-function)
   "Hook of functions that produce doc strings.
 
 A doc string is typically relevant if point is on a function-like
@@ -957,6 +963,12 @@ eldoc-print-current-symbol-info
              (setq eldoc--last-request-state token)
              (eldoc--invoke-strategy nil))))))
 
+(defun eldoc-help-at-pt-function (&rest _)
+  "Show help at point via Eldoc if `eldoc-help-at-pt' is non-nil.
+Intended for `eldoc-documentation-functions' (which see)."
+  (when-let* ((help (and eldoc-help-at-pt (help-at-pt-kbd-string))))
+    (format "Help: %s" (substitute-command-keys help))))
+
 
 ;; This section only affects ElDoc output to the echo area, as in
 ;; `eldoc-display-in-echo-area'.
diff --git a/lisp/help-at-pt.el b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
index 68054016dc5..548aa864a03 100644
--- a/lisp/help-at-pt.el
+++ b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
@@ -191,7 +191,11 @@ help-at-pt-display-when-idle
 enabling buffer local values.  It sets the actual value to nil.
 Thus, Custom distinguishes between a nil value and other values
 that disable the feature, which Custom identifies with `never'.
-The default is `never'."
+The default is `never'.
+
+Eldoc uses the echo area to display help at point.  As such it
+competes with `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' for the echo area.
+If you use Eldoc, consider setting `eldoc-help-at-pt' instead."
   :group 'help-at-pt
   :type '(choice  (const :tag "Always"
 			 :format "%t\n%h"
-- 
2.47.2


--=-=-=--
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 14:46:26 +0200
Message-Id: <86sen5i671.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87sen5b8xi.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Daniel Mendler
 on Sat, 22 Mar 2025 12:29:13 +0100)
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
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> From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 12:29:13 +0100
> 
> > Thanks, but please also reflect this feature in the doc string of
> > help-at-pt-display-when-idle and in the Emacs user manual (where that
> > option is described).
> 
> The question is if `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' should be marked
> obsolete in favor of the Eldoc mechanism to avoid conflicts. Eldoc is
> even preloaded these days, so the de-facto standard for documentation at
> point.

Users can still disable ElDoc, and if they do, perhaps they would like
to have help-at-pt-display-when-idle.

We could start the process of obsoleting help-at-pt-display-when-idle,
if we think it should be superseded by ElDoc, but that process takes
time, and in the meantime we should assume people are still using
help-at-pt-display-when-idle and need to be aware of the replacement,
and vice versa.

> > Also, shouldn't we have a user option to turn this on in ElDoc?
> 
> Not sure if we need an option given that it is easy to add the function
> to the list, or remove it, if the function is enabled by default.

It might be easy fore you and me, but not for users who are not Lisp
programmers.

Thanks.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
In-Reply-To: <86iko1jp1d.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 22 Mar
 2025 13:14:06 +0200")
References: <87r02pl7y5.fsf@HIDDEN> <86iko1jp1d.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 12:29:13 +0100
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 10:40:18 +0100
>> From:  Daniel Mendler via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
>> 
>> This patch proposes the addition of a new Eldoc function
>> `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'.
>> 
>> Show help-at-pt string via Eldoc as an alternative to the
>> `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' timer.  The help-at-pt timer competes
>> with Eldoc for the echo area, such that using both does not work well.
>> The new `help-at-pt-eldoc-function' is meant to be added to
>> `eldoc-documentation-functions'.

Eli, thank you for looking at the patch so quickly.

> Thanks, but please also reflect this feature in the doc string of
> help-at-pt-display-when-idle and in the Emacs user manual (where that
> option is described).

The question is if `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' should be marked
obsolete in favor of the Eldoc mechanism to avoid conflicts. Eldoc is
even preloaded these days, so the de-facto standard for documentation at
point.

> Also, shouldn't we have a user option to turn this on in ElDoc?

Not sure if we need an option given that it is easy to add the function
to the list, or remove it, if the function is enabled by default.

(add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions #'help-at-pt-eldoc-function)
(remove-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions #'help-at-pt-eldoc-function)

> And what about a NEWS entry?

I will add one.

Daniel
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 77169 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#77169: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
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> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 10:40:18 +0100
> From:  Daniel Mendler via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> 
> This patch proposes the addition of a new Eldoc function
> `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'.
> 
> Show help-at-pt string via Eldoc as an alternative to the
> `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' timer.  The help-at-pt timer competes
> with Eldoc for the echo area, such that using both does not work well.
> The new `help-at-pt-eldoc-function' is meant to be added to
> `eldoc-documentation-functions'.

Thanks, but please also reflect this feature in the doc string of
help-at-pt-display-when-idle and in the Emacs user manual (where that
option is described).

Also, shouldn't we have a user option to turn this on in ElDoc?

And what about a NEWS entry?
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 10:40:18 +0100
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Tags: patch

This patch proposes the addition of a new Eldoc function
`help-at-pt-eldoc-function'.

Show help-at-pt string via Eldoc as an alternative to the
`help-at-pt-display-when-idle' timer.  The help-at-pt timer competes
with Eldoc for the echo area, such that using both does not work well.
The new `help-at-pt-eldoc-function' is meant to be added to
`eldoc-documentation-functions'.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/patch
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename=0001-New-Eldoc-function-help-at-pt-eldoc-function.patch

From d3d2717d98e82ec2ac80054a08d8e7b5d215f0e4 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 10:29:45 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] New Eldoc function `help-at-pt-eldoc-function'

Show help-at-pt string via Eldoc as an alternative to the
`help-at-pt-display-when-idle' timer.  The help-at-pt timer competes
with Eldoc for the echo area, such that using both does not work well.

The new `help-at-pt-eldoc-function' is meant to be added to
`eldoc-documentation-functions':

(add-to-list 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'help-at-pt-eldoc-function)

* lisp/help-at-pt.el (help-at-pt-eldoc-function): New Eldoc function.

* TODO: Should the new function be added to
`eldoc-documentation-functions' by default, such that tooltip messages
are automatically shown in the echo area when moving point over text
with the `help-echo' property or overlay?
* TODO: Should the `help-at-pt-timer' mechanism be deprecated in favor
of Eldoc?
---
 lisp/help-at-pt.el | 7 +++++++
 1 file changed, 7 insertions(+)

diff --git a/lisp/help-at-pt.el b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
index 68054016dc5..6a266114610 100644
--- a/lisp/help-at-pt.el
+++ b/lisp/help-at-pt.el
@@ -81,6 +81,13 @@ help-at-pt-kbd-string
 	(echo (help-at-pt-string)))
     (if (and kbd (not (eq kbd t))) kbd echo)))
 
+;;;###autoload
+(defun help-at-pt-eldoc-function (&rest _)
+  "Show help at point via Eldoc.
+Intended for `eldoc-documentation-functions' (which see)."
+  (when-let* ((help (help-at-pt-kbd-string)))
+    (format "Help: %s" (substitute-command-keys help))))
+
 (declare-function widget-describe "wid-edit" (&optional widget-or-pos))
 (declare-function widget-at "wid-edit" (&optional pos))
 
-- 
2.47.2


--=-=-=--
Acknowledgement sent to Daniel Mendler <mail@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#77169; Package emacs. Full text available.
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