Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2022 13:25:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 09:25:23 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51270 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1nkQcd-0001Fu-7n for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:25:23 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f176.google.com ([209.85.215.176]:45051) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1nkQcY-0001Fb-2D for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:25:21 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f176.google.com with SMTP id v10so6499903pgl.11 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:25:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sc3d.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Kn6tZSLpKsohXmzmZ4BjpW9N6DbT8HZfI8XaSqMqoDA=; b=W96RUXxPkMmjt4fUE7bur5JnJaroSsNClP6cmNixPUtO6npq8XpJZYHzLER934xeH4 EufM9yRovMM3Sk2bLNi78ynFZ5oKwPGqtAtVIPsWwsWbdr0V2lsFz/Bt4dZ4gnYxKneZ 2qrmsNBYwAsKgUbyXmzjrORL5Yb2dKYYPYF34= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Kn6tZSLpKsohXmzmZ4BjpW9N6DbT8HZfI8XaSqMqoDA=; b=iCX1nZ43+09q942NegThHoRRKsgvLSi8BsWODU04m8XahLV9A6CW4Au9h7esBwKdIi 95JA9DS9JUiXKThSbXryNGtyh3Y27zNHq21le+uPqyKlzWSCIa5pLzm8m2b+1SLeR0TB THPiDx72Ai2wq2ruk7mMrJiyc/5gpIgLz+T3gdv5JMvJK6w9ygC76/Q/dxmmuYgrDP3o mGKsIv/2sd/8xhb2aKVBYiVHhgzy1yz3uibCFonzBvtlL96t7k0oYZPuePmR70MGgUjz bsXDb13oGQvlD+2ePkynuJKfIKPYrztA2IerCwU8+UkZqVdyKAOg+H+FqYy8HtfdDcnX gfbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531NITIxgTWblyHM2By4giekicwXg15SzUBGZD//wGh/h/4EFi2v +lxdBvHAlJ8yVDkkUjKuZ7dTlzapIm8bSAeCbTZceY8to5GFEg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx6+SE9cENXgfDSe0ji9nR28+zTJWS7mbVNo0Pt5Co7ftUysPtjHoC0/u0cPqVYQzPZUr/3DLmtDwuKovy1f3U= X-Received: by 2002:a62:b50d:0:b0:50d:43b8:f2cb with SMTP id y13-20020a62b50d000000b0050d43b8f2cbmr24828864pfe.13.1651238712086; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:25:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zgk4dpyz.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87zgk4dpyz.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:25:01 +0100 Message-ID: <CAOnWdogmNUOfA6yFpuv8YkLkuQF+kE1p56CWuKExW4Z7_BvobQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dfadde05ddcaf87a" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000dfadde05ddcaf87a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 at 13:38, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote: > > Anyway, I agree that `M-TAB' is a bad choice for a key binding this > days, since many of the window systems out there steal the key, and > therefore an important thing like completion doesn't work logically out > of the box for many people. > Indeed, it won't work for most potential new users. > `C-TAB' is free, of course, but doesn't work on terminals, and I guess > the same is the case with all other modifier+TAB combinations. So I > don't know what we could do -- we could bind `C-TAB' for the GUI people, > for instance? > C-TAB is a good choice for a binding that won't conflict with the environment, as it's widely used by other programs for "switch tab", so it's unlikely that any window manager would steal it by default. -- https://rrt.sc3d.org --000000000000dfadde05ddcaf87a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail= _attr">On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 at 13:38, Lars Ingebrigtsen <<a href=3D"mailt= o:larsi@HIDDEN">larsi@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br> Anyway, I agree that `M-TAB' is a bad choice for a key binding this<br> days, since many of the window systems out there steal the key, and<br> therefore an important thing like completion doesn't work logically out= <br> of the box for many people.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style= =3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_= default">Indeed, it won't work for most potential new users.<br></div><= /div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px= 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> `C-TAB' is free, of course, but doesn't work on terminals, and I gu= ess<br> the same is the case with all other modifier+TAB combinations.=C2=A0 So I<b= r> don't know what we could do -- we could bind `C-TAB' for the GUI pe= ople,<br> for instance?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-family= :arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">C-TAB = is a good choice for a binding that won't conflict with the environment= , as it's widely used by other programs for "switch tab", so = it's unlikely that any window manager would steal it by default.</div><= br></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir= =3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://rrt.sc3d.org" target=3D"_= blank">https://rrt.sc3d.org</a></div></div></div></div></div> --000000000000dfadde05ddcaf87a--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9c8454632351942a2933bbcdffc8f1e9; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:22:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zgk4dpyz.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:22:26 +0800 In-Reply-To: <87zgk4dpyz.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:38:28 +0200") Message-ID: <87bkwkvxbh.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20118 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 900 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > I have somehow never considered that `completion-at-point' was supposed > to be on `M-TAB', because the Emacs help system only mentions it as > `C-M-i'... but `C-i' is, of course, `TAB', and with an added Meta, > that's `M-TAB' alright. =F0=9F=99=83 > > Anyway, I agree that `M-TAB' is a bad choice for a key binding this > days, since many of the window systems out there steal the key, and > therefore an important thing like completion doesn't work logically out > of the box for many people. > > `C-TAB' is free, of course, but doesn't work on terminals, and I guess > the same is the case with all other modifier+TAB combinations. So I > don't know what we could do -- we could bind `C-TAB' for the GUI people, > for instance? FWIW, I'm happy with typing C-M-i. I have no opinion about also binding C-<tab>, as long as M-<tab> doesn't go away.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2022 12:38:41 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 08:38:41 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1nkPtR-0008N1-5t for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:38:41 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37416) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1nkPtO-0008Mo-91 for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:38:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ENAAgOeKofDUZgeglxRQ+9jqsmoNq5CyrHC9ilU6ZIA=; b=nEc8KfCRDI0mSWxHGkpaqEe6qK t4ca/oofgRWEeN4NldX44nccd0IjqYRM8k18nt0gcfd86YkR+m6DYed1ymtxY7QgkN49QrwG/QbQK /+alc2hy379dRv2peBoOF0fNfFUG+yaFP7uAXKxCq5Q4geRxhg9y3+IWukl5FoUOCzKo=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1nkPtE-00087L-PV; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:38:31 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Now-Playing: Colleen's _A Flame My Love, A Frequency_: "Summer Night (Bat Song)" Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:38:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Reuben Thomas's message of "Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:26:15 +0100") Message-ID: <87zgk4dpyz.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> writes: > Emacs binds various completion functions to M-Tab, which is already used > by many window managers, including Compiz and Metacity, i.e. the WMs one > is likely to use on a modern GNU system, for swi [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> writes: > Emacs binds various completion functions to M-Tab, which is already used > by many window managers, including Compiz and Metacity, i.e. the WMs one > is likely to use on a modern GNU system, for switching between open > windows. > > Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding for > completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather than s= imply a > different one? (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved at the time.) I have somehow never considered that `completion-at-point' was supposed to be on `M-TAB', because the Emacs help system only mentions it as `C-M-i'... but `C-i' is, of course, `TAB', and with an added Meta, that's `M-TAB' alright. =F0=9F=99=83 Anyway, I agree that `M-TAB' is a bad choice for a key binding this days, since many of the window systems out there steal the key, and therefore an important thing like completion doesn't work logically out of the box for many people. `C-TAB' is free, of course, but doesn't work on terminals, and I guess the same is the case with all other modifier+TAB combinations. So I don't know what we could do -- we could bind `C-TAB' for the GUI people, for instance? --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Oct 2021 08:12:41 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 22 04:12:41 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59257 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mdpfM-00074D-PX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 04:12:41 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f177.google.com ([209.85.214.177]:44912) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1mdpfL-00073m-9W for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 04:12:39 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f177.google.com with SMTP id t11so2164909plq.11 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CH6kffmJQubcGEdY2RBYM0/+X9TcCopslsNOFqW6BXI=; b=aPgTtELihO7yWBdk+fKeQujVuay2FQ5liTnXPwU/nmQ5WjoxvhkvjG6ZOE1u7McWmc 21jnias3P+AkouAALmQS1iQDiRw4iEhAAIAtJ8RdGoL74U8FUkxBrSdj08CI0iw0LVSq WFDqOLVeS0dLAPdlZq/i7KggqJEjXYT9785ve+Sr4r0BD/3vRAuA7IRbkWwq/9CLX/Bj tJo8meb/rIXalyXLCoaKPwCxezscYkjXlzpAPDNNYDSLRwYJxzEqGkWPmNMsQRhQ7nKS OY9fb5Q8EmqtSY6BoTgNRI7Cy0fVxjdNfIY6SLwbamwpgiCLRf0lG5VHXB7yRHqu5H85 qpJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530I7Uniqs+LHowMPIkJEqNctYuO0lA5fsBg3URifI3DNzLVZ+0q mIjMKdVawe7HjkCsbjlh5RbjnN5FlmI9tavOrFeZ3Saz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbgh0Hpy5YILsSB0rum+oJhk3XCx0VyhneCndw7BHvCfasK0UZMZf8hV0BJhh7SJFYcwouEYYmi1cWWALGerY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:c70d:: with SMTP id o13mr12791085pjt.143.1634890353755; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:12:33 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <f774a05b5c1f599ce90f818fb0c8c36c@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmeAL36ivB8x0YVa71cihaYvr_d=0evQ=PXmXkisK1D4A@HIDDEN> <f774a05b5c1f599ce90f818fb0c8c36c@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:12:33 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkmmS4Ftj5_OTOy+C62A2f3UCQTqkf=mJY7uVNYAuprnwVw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> writes: > You can already bind <tab> independently of TAB / C-i on graphical > displays. I didn't know that, thanks. > IMHO there's very little point in trying to account for window > managers using Ctrl or Meta. That's inevitably going to be disruptive > to Emacs users, and will most likely affect a lot more than just TAB. I see your point. Some bindings are indeed specific to this or that window manager, and trying to accommodate for that sounds like a losing battle. But Alt+Tab specifically is pretty ubiquitous these days.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Oct 2021 06:31:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 22 02:31:00 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59164 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mdo4y-0003xe-Ay for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:31:00 -0400 Received: from smtp-4.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.59]:36655) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1mdo4x-0003xV-0R for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:30:59 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=34619 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-4.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1mdo4t-00078m-4a; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 19:30:55 +1300 Received: from ip-115-69-175-77.kinect.net.nz ([115.69.175.77]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 19:30:55 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 19:30:55 +1300 From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for =?UTF-8?Q?completion=3F?= In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmeAL36ivB8x0YVa71cihaYvr_d=0evQ=PXmXkisK1D4A@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmeAL36ivB8x0YVa71cihaYvr_d=0evQ=PXmXkisK1D4A@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <f774a05b5c1f599ce90f818fb0c8c36c@HIDDEN> X-Sender: psainty@HIDDEN User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2021-10-22 08:44, Stefan Kangas wrote: > In my opinion, the least intrusive change is to allow C-i and TAB > to be bound separately on graphical displays. You can already bind <tab> independently of TAB / C-i on graphical displays. (I don't see how you could separate C-i and TAB because they're literally the same thing.) > I'm not the biggest fan of the method of "fixing" issues by telling > users to rebind keys locally. The problem here is universal. IMHO there's very little point in trying to account for window managers using Ctrl or Meta. That's inevitably going to be disruptive to Emacs users, and will most likely affect a lot more than just TAB. I've used a bunch of window managers, and I can't remember a single one where I didn't configure it to disable most of its bindings, and move the things I was keeping to non-conflicting sequences. I see it as a normal part of configuring a system, if you use Emacs. -Phil
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Oct 2021 19:46:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 21 15:46:03 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58653 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mde0p-0005Fo-0x for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:46:03 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f43.google.com ([209.85.216.43]:51869) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1mde0l-0005F7-NZ for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:46:01 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f43.google.com with SMTP id kk10so1294942pjb.1 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:45:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sc3d.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6CwUe0diGRAYteSaaBhznY49vQcaBL9E+q+kPvt6tns=; b=Ne9NUnZjM0C4RPjybtzKwzalrM/2fF773fCwhzntgqSwLnA4JxvEZGht1768SzxGZr xd32GL9FEXwUOAKNleKXhVR33nkNBkQKDfZ8TzbH+oXfZ/J08oeepRDsVrGxlpUSjEYH G6PknCl8eQk0JuXfbmoNjwWYpaPtPCqbvcJ0M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6CwUe0diGRAYteSaaBhznY49vQcaBL9E+q+kPvt6tns=; b=uZ8h3XA5zYXzcScUYAqhttAPqu4dhGrIgxLl9b6Wr43hZsmlOFKtEzUEubQ9TMWxOw NFrpFu5WFeXLPkbmYryeq6jk8zvF9Nc5E50onxmsUE7TmmntcKZNEuQzFvky2d0nu4U/ NMP6UOm1RR0dCnepysmISPSpBnB/zjE00757d9LVbyY2mpvrm+0wqAokdILS10BgdnUt kUYo7B5wID2P0ojAMBNj8zqzfbnKxQgI5IExmKKR5k4SYamdnybbJNFIiyP0m/U+NVx4 tbP+Ov6e2ief/dszSTnsCt/EMWyItQT2CKvC1lW8ZUjRKyqGe1WXMNHYP1GSKKX5Gj7B kOww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Pe9GYgrwFtRkewvhxkuL3zCBvQDfPP9TeiN+2e+KqOSoyOwXk MtRG8G5/nbk/j1TyZH617QLcCkNDRx9IiLi05R5RFoorWW4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfAcSJCnhesVg5JglViFUDXZdRibGtdKYFRXS7/22GkHrEgwFrylr5KjHMzNmkvpl9fBQiTlgGjLVDxfiWH+Q= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d718:b0:13d:e2ec:1741 with SMTP id w24-20020a170902d71800b0013de2ec1741mr7123534ply.38.1634845553991; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:45:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmeAL36ivB8x0YVa71cihaYvr_d=0evQ=PXmXkisK1D4A@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmeAL36ivB8x0YVa71cihaYvr_d=0evQ=PXmXkisK1D4A@HIDDEN> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:45:42 +0100 Message-ID: <CAOnWdojUEj1f+vwDXFcXnts_Dh5a8sm6bq57PxnBiDHm0GsVxQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082349b05cee22439" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --00000000000082349b05cee22439 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 20:44, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> wrote: > > In my opinion, the least intrusive change is to allow C-i and TAB to be > bound separately on graphical displays. > Ingenious! In the mean time, I have solved the problem personally by using Super rather than Alt/Meta for all my window manager bindings; but I'm conscious that this won't help many users who never rebind system keys. -- https://rrt.sc3d.org --00000000000082349b05cee22439 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail= _attr">On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 20:44, Stefan Kangas <<a href=3D"mailto:st= efan@HIDDEN">stefan@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas= s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r= gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br> In my opinion, the least intrusive change is to allow C-i and TAB to be<br> bound separately on graphical displays.<br> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,h= elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">Ingenious!</di= v><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small" cla= ss=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa= ns-serif;font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">In the mean time, I have = solved the problem personally by using Super rather than Alt/Meta for all m= y window manager bindings; but I'm conscious that this won't help m= any users who never rebind system keys.</div></div><div><br></div>-- <br><d= iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"= ltr"><a href=3D"https://rrt.sc3d.org" target=3D"_blank">https://rrt.sc3d.or= g</a></div></div></div></div></div> --00000000000082349b05cee22439--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Oct 2021 19:44:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 21 15:44:08 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58611 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mddyy-00058n-DX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:44:08 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f44.google.com ([209.85.216.44]:43846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1mddyx-00057g-7m for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:44:07 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f44.google.com with SMTP id e5-20020a17090a804500b001a116ad95caso1357767pjw.2 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IMD2lAklB0DpBAgprC+u+HO56ujRQs8rxjOqzwAz+xU=; b=pYjJ927XpTaZIIGz7zf8yhQ6OKMSMlaROBCbFpdMuqWcS8wb0zViCRfuevk5nMN2vi ogRZSrH2QqPt+Gq3QDvu+GFNEPlgvMvUM8NvTf17pzXFWuNRHRuK6ibED5zWDNMa90cj VluVUFi3Xw/i8c5oUiqyasxzxC8xZS8IrIdmUAWBOfaGAopkjwIMLMWNufshD1fFF6xB V/Sfa1CgAsvMOx4FpAWXrSogEm/otCIwpnbz7HnHPYESWAPc8XPd2y2sT9R/g5nWEQlU cAwqL8YaV2eOBiKjdrYp+Ws6rgeJtjJKddIY86NGFt59qWEjTV4CNa2TNwBXRegIcTmd Xctw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530KrLy3zP63hAL3NlmX18Axq6PVnQJVAx7HseLRWZE8EqjJRR4h 5ZjbPzmTmUWmWQc8PFk56YgL2VA/CMuvJgSBIemGzLx+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynnsv/cCGZYeSroeofp9jgVawAj+8OpSJjDUZWs9eot+B9pgvwZHptYQRKanO93EyUwZTnN0ustFdE0rZwIWA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:c70d:: with SMTP id o13mr9033372pjt.143.1634845441511; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:44:01 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Reuben Thomas's message of "Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:26:15 +0100") References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:44:01 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkmmeAL36ivB8x0YVa71cihaYvr_d=0evQ=PXmXkisK1D4A@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> writes: > Emacs binds various completion functions to M-Tab, which is already used > by many window managers, including Compiz and Metacity, i.e. the WMs one > is likely to use on a modern GNU system, for switching between open > windows. > > Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding for > completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather than s= imply a > different one? (This is a long and sprawling discussion.) In my opinion, the least intrusive change is to allow C-i and TAB to be bound separately on graphical displays.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2011 19:55:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 24 15:55:22 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QE5Os-0004eZ-Bd for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:55:22 -0400 Received: from exprod7og117.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.6]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QE5Oq-0004eM-D7 for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:55:21 -0400 Received: from mail-yi0-f50.google.com ([209.85.218.50]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob117.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTbSAIla3NlJmM3BokYSk497Ps0mzkGRD@HIDDEN; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:55:20 PDT Received: by yie30 with SMTP id 30so521250yie.9 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:55:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.73.170 with SMTP id v30mr3215176yhd.331.1303674912978; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.108.173 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:55:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87oc3vwmi9.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87oc3vwmi9.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 20:55:12 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTikfd8HFx6-qHWQ1dpuLTg+kQ1jzbw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 24 April 2011 19:08, Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN> wrote: > Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > >>> Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding fo= r >>> completion functions, even if it=92s an extra binding rather than simpl= y a >>> different one? >> >> TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete). > > I tried this out some time ago, but found it unsatisfactory. =A0The > problem was that I sometimes spuriously triggered completion when I only > intended to indent, because the current line happened to be correctly > indented. =A0It is often difficult to tell by eye whether a line is > already indented. I feared as much. Thanks for the input, I'll avoid wasting my time on the experiment. --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2011 19:43:19 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 24 15:43:19 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QE5DD-0004La-4I for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:43:19 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1QE5DB-0004LP-02 for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:43:17 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p3OJh8Hp009303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:43:10 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p3OJh7rm021293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:43:08 GMT Received: from abhmt015.oracle.com (abhmt015.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3OJh21k027420; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:43:02 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.42.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:43:01 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "'Chong Yidong'" <cyd@HIDDEN>, "'Stefan Monnier'" <monnier@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87oc3vwmi9.fsf@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:43:03 -0700 Message-ID: <736C4CB8BF7044B7AF21D85595F179A2@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 Thread-Index: AcwCrrDChh+MzkNvS/GDf4trbru3zgAB5lgw In-Reply-To: <87oc3vwmi9.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4DB47D4F.0046:SCFMA922111,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 'Reuben Thomas' <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) > > TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete). > > I tried this out some time ago, but found it unsatisfactory. The > problem was that I sometimes spuriously triggered completion > when I only intended to indent, because the current line happened > to be correctly indented. It is often difficult to tell by eye > whether a line is already indented. Amen. Another case of DWIM making the user work harder, forcing her to try to second-guess it and figure out whether it will in fact DTRT in the current context. As I said: >> Keep it simple. Find a key or let users find their own key >> for a simple, straightforward command (i.e., that does only >> what M-TAB does currently). Forget about combining 36 >> different behaviors on the same key. ... >> But please do not redesign the behavior to become hydra-headed >> so it tries to adapt to multiple contexts, just because you >> cannot think of a good default key. That makes little sense. >> >> And TAB, in particular, is *not* "the way forward for this". >> If ever there was a key *not* to double-up on for this (triple? >> quadruple? pentuple?), TAB is it. It's just about the poorest >> choice possible here. Simple, straightforward commands/keys give the user control (not the clever programmer).
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2011 18:08:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 24 14:08:24 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QE3jL-0001RE-TM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:08:24 -0400 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.147]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <cyd@HIDDEN>) id 1QE3jK-0001R4-Pj for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:08:23 -0400 Received: from furball (dhcp128036225098.central.yale.edu [128.36.225.98]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p3OI8FWZ020487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:08:15 -0400 Received: by furball (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E87F416055B; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:08:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:08:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:53:28 -0300") Message-ID: <87oc3vwmi9.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.147 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding for >> completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather than = simply a >> different one? > > TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete). I tried this out some time ago, but found it unsatisfactory. The problem was that I sometimes spuriously triggered completion when I only intended to indent, because the current line happened to be correctly indented. It is often difficult to tell by eye whether a line is already indented. (Another related topic is that of binding TAB to lisp-complete-symbol in read-expression-map; this was brought up on emacs-devel some time ago, but the discussion petered out IIRC.)
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Apr 2011 21:10:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 22 17:10:13 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QDNcD-00024s-Eh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDNcB-00024h-Ma for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:12 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDNc5-0005o6-Sb for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:06 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,RFC_ABUSE_POST,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:58243) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDNc5-0005o2-Qx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34649) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDNc5-0000rJ-1e for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:05 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDNc4-0005mA-9C for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:05 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:50761) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDNc4-0005l6-3c for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:04 -0400 Received: by eyd9 with SMTP id 9so289863eyd.0 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:10:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9Z3Cu6LgBAmJQ5+CeOiCqnTlNfa02efDb/IVqTsYNDQ=; b=xsD3Pnl7LefBPV513hyBvjDXVeot2iCBssrzOXSSB5me7SdB+TEazD/njMEofGLQ1C KchQmEXbvDg13YuQiIaUhR1qFSL56jfxMQh1Av7VH2SlE0TS0ccBZ2ET1zpAvGCgchUy qjJtWA8Oyaxs8kKUJkTFqOMaZ5pBXFtlpwtS4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FAQfUdgKbGWGCGT5+8coii1oq8byQ7O6eRkUCgbhusFaKmxh9IMVwk94cx8o8xoD7A jn1hNR6k7hvxHazVMxpXEj7IGT+b7ZwreNGUbu87jMfu0LxvawlETn74K+Yw9Dxm1OuG 6VZrwEUsGOsn/s+Lc5Z3ptXiLg94+RLxdS01A= Received: by 10.213.0.207 with SMTP id 15mr379714ebc.20.1303506603216; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:10:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:09:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87pqoeknkd.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <87pqoeknkd.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 23:09:43 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTik8T+6YyVeZFk6AEX5zDa8Qi98wbQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@HIDDEN> wrote= : > Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> writes: > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0The same has been said about CUA-bindings. Both cua-mode and= viper are > =C2=A0 =C2=A0parts of Emacs and parts that many users depends on. There a= re other > =C2=A0 =C2=A0emulations that are not that important. In fact I do not kno= w of any > =C2=A0 =C2=A0people still using the other emulations. > > Oh, no, Lennart, you still don't know what I'm doing with Emacs in > private, let alone how `important' doing it is to me. > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0But the fact is that many people using Emacs depends on cua-= mode and > =C2=A0 =C2=A0viper. Not taking facts into account is not a good real worl= d > =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasoning. > > I'm trying to use my imagination to get my head around how you've come > to know this. If you try harder you may succeed.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
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Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> writes:
The same has been said about CUA-bindings. Both cua-mode and viper are
parts of Emacs and parts that many users depends on. There are other
emulations that are not that important. In fact I do not know of any
people still using the other emulations.
Oh, no, Lennart, you still don't know what I'm doing with Emacs in
private, let alone how `important' doing it is to me.
But the fact is that many people using Emacs depends on cua-mode and
viper. Not taking facts into account is not a good real world
reasoning.
I'm trying to use my imagination to get my head around how you've come
to know this.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
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Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> writes:
This is just plain stupid. Viper is not just any emulation mode. It
happen to be key bindings a lot of potential and current Emacs users
knows.
Your valorization of Viper is no more valid than another's
devalorization of it. I think Vi's great, what's so great about Emacs
that you cause it to behave like Vi?
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Apr 2011 18:12:57 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 22 14:12:56 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QDKqe-0006ZA-Fl for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:12:56 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDKqc-0006Yw-Vt for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:12:55 -0400 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so268756ewy.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:12:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=3EIBMu7HkRYzKQcqA47/VKxl2nHnkRgp5zahm0xVwVU=; b=cXOxPnWF9pvvgIYpTyS6/xmiVpy6j3UvDaOHUKy1dYHSMv+9LOSMehAsqKNlfdyTRW w6t//3FxjwvyinEP1cHoi8TPKDRjeEGTL9ODBZu7RQpicoVFuA13TqKDE23Aia0SeHP+ RSgo1jnfU/nt45AQ92CRekW59DvtUiRtngVk4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=hn38uWTomDoMZI/zVMEKaj6B17RMwW7/zFUaxlkYGfJZYETIuHANsTFAIveLX3BUxm 9YFm2D82FzPMC404QnOFVmmWqTKBAsgdM/2Q4HiZSFYYgNTT6pLFG+gQRH4S6lIy64az FVMv/mDWm7Wg0j7qk7u+6oodFfl5xgoiaWVtU= Received: by 10.213.103.80 with SMTP id j16mr314792ebo.96.1303495969132; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:12:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:12:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikALL_1uWWwsu-J=JTTkgCTXvHQ1g@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikbTwZ7qngCMkFqO_HidKKFM+JAiQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTika5gEV7w7mHj=LdaP9jA+df9ABnQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimCwRG7gdUJ9sd7=vA2uvjBx-4Bqw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=HL05YgvWuuq-HYQ=KjVbxOU=q1A@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikALL_1uWWwsu-J=JTTkgCTXvHQ1g@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:12:29 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTin8ZfKo-Bp2t5FM9dWSdHPcCZ7KMw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: > >> If you do not think this is a problem then I guess you also could >> accept an argument for moving for example C-x in Emacs to >> another key? > > No, because that would change the default Emacs bindings in a major > way. No-one is suggesting changing them in a major way, and no-one is > suggesting changing Viper or CUA at all! Not in short time. But in the longer time we have been discussing adjustment. I think the most probable way is to have a way to adjust all key bindings so that they fit better with CUA. Though I doubt it will be the default in our life time ;-)
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Apr 2011 17:33:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 22 13:33:53 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QDKEr-0005hd-1S for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:33:53 -0400 Received: from exprod7og122.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.22]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QDKEp-0005hR-Ez for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:33:52 -0400 Received: from mail-gw0-f43.google.com ([74.125.83.43]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob122.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTbG7+SxC8MeSAmzSgYAYaSinsnqN19O5@HIDDEN; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:33:51 PDT Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21so254396gwj.2 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:33:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.161.163 with SMTP id w23mr1433858yhk.245.1303493621633; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.108.172 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:33:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=HL05YgvWuuq-HYQ=KjVbxOU=q1A@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikbTwZ7qngCMkFqO_HidKKFM+JAiQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTika5gEV7w7mHj=LdaP9jA+df9ABnQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimCwRG7gdUJ9sd7=vA2uvjBx-4Bqw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=HL05YgvWuuq-HYQ=KjVbxOU=q1A@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:33:41 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTikALL_1uWWwsu-J=JTTkgCTXvHQ1g@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 22 April 2011 14:47, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:08 PM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: >> How is Viper or CUA the world outside? > > They are mirrors of the outside world. And users of them want this > mirror to be exact in certain cases. We're talking at cross-purposes then. > If you do not think this is a problem then I guess you also could > accept an argument for moving for example C-x in Emacs to > another key? No, because that would change the default Emacs bindings in a major way. No-one is suggesting changing them in a major way, and no-one is suggesting changing Viper or CUA at all! -- http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Apr 2011 13:48:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 22 09:48:22 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QDGic-0000aS-EP for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:48:22 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QDGia-0000aE-7M for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:48:20 -0400 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so212039ewy.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 06:48:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=rdHBxvM1GpZT7vh42VZ+beK1ndtUvbT3jISW24ytNxk=; b=qq0so+FnW/0exxNvPsiumMMpXARqNGqWA8dIhPyRtK1w4xps9Tp8O79mQB+b+gqxqz 1r3eMXouIvKvXQACVYkh0wXQ45yX1xJ0YdLNVvWNWVYJQZY0vQh/Y9tlen79vUNHtKh5 ltHhhuGQBhXUG1NqY733PMWsQljf6g0ylX8qc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=moqId62Wj+Q5rvx9L8mCDdyS3G6TZ11Z0733RoEkod5DQkO47y8QqijuMIR0TdSsZl lTkejLzETRZSFeIcjQuPfIdYiasQmpFLFxZp1mUnqg/WgoWwirFywRa6ghJRXkkzijPO rdfYNqtpq2yo2jytPOpEHSwHfb2h6Ay56ITaU= Received: by 10.213.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr238087ebd.58.1303480094259; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 06:48:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 06:47:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimCwRG7gdUJ9sd7=vA2uvjBx-4Bqw@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikbTwZ7qngCMkFqO_HidKKFM+JAiQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTika5gEV7w7mHj=LdaP9jA+df9ABnQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimCwRG7gdUJ9sd7=vA2uvjBx-4Bqw@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:47:54 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTi=HL05YgvWuuq-HYQ=KjVbxOU=q1A@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:08 PM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: > On 21 April 2011 21:55, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: >>> On 21 April 2011 20:54, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> But the fact is that many people using Emacs depends on cua-mode and >>>> viper. >>> >>> Sure, so from time to time those bindings have to be updated when new >>> incompatibilities arise with the default Emacs bindings. How is that a >>> big deal? >> >> >> The big deal is that it is Emacs that has to accommodate its default >> bindings since the world outside is so much bigger. > > How is Viper or CUA the world outside? They are mirrors of the outside world. And users of them want this mirror to be exact in certain cases. > To give just one example each, Viper is, following vi, modal: keys > that in Emacs are always bound to self-insert-command are bound to > editing commands in viper's command mode; in CUA, C-x is used for cut, > whereas in Emacs's default bindings it's a prefix. So it's not even > hypothetical: there are already fundamental incompatibilities. Why, > therefore, the fuss about another (potential) incompatibility? If you do not think this is a problem then I guess you also could accept an argument for moving for example C-x in Emacs to another key?
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 21:08:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 17:08:51 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QD17K-00036k-NG for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:08:50 -0400 Received: from exprod7og103.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.159]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QD17H-00036S-16 for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:08:48 -0400 Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com ([74.125.83.172]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob103.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTbCc2Ih78nCZ8hmORocZQ3pS00wVgmR6@HIDDEN; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:08:46 PDT Received: by pvh1 with SMTP id 1so64945pvh.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.38.102 with SMTP id f6mr565859pbk.199.1303420120399; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTika5gEV7w7mHj=LdaP9jA+df9ABnQ@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikbTwZ7qngCMkFqO_HidKKFM+JAiQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTika5gEV7w7mHj=LdaP9jA+df9ABnQ@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:08:40 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTimCwRG7gdUJ9sd7=vA2uvjBx-4Bqw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 21 April 2011 21:55, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: >> On 21 April 2011 20:54, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: >>> >>> >>> But the fact is that many people using Emacs depends on cua-mode and >>> viper. >> >> Sure, so from time to time those bindings have to be updated when new >> incompatibilities arise with the default Emacs bindings. How is that a >> big deal? > > > The big deal is that it is Emacs that has to accommodate its default > bindings since the world outside is so much bigger. How is Viper or CUA the world outside? I filed this bug because of a clash between Emacs and the "world outside", in this case, standard window-manager bindings. But Viper and CUA are a) part of Emacs and b) both have (to a greater extent in Viper's case, a lesser in CUA's) a different and fundamentally incompatible approach to key binding from Emacs's default. I still don't see, therefore, why it's necessary, or even how it's possible for Emacs's default keybindings to take account of them. To give just one example each, Viper is, following vi, modal: keys that in Emacs are always bound to self-insert-command are bound to editing commands in viper's command mode; in CUA, C-x is used for cut, whereas in Emacs's default bindings it's a prefix. So it's not even hypothetical: there are already fundamental incompatibilities. Why, therefore, the fuss about another (potential) incompatibility? -- http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 20:56:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 16:56:08 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QD0v1-0002nx-CI for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:56:07 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QD0uz-0002nT-Vp for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:56:06 -0400 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so35458ewy.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:56:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=3gVdGsJLfe91WZ7K+W+gI5yl7gWEPyJw6hrfqr7BJ70=; b=mg2/mccWsQMWrhyL+DvY4i9H03O+XJov9jQHC4/TQ2BOZH0L56R+i4pRv75oU+iUhL KQSGhrSI0hFWZd0eiTNIXPRixe/fqV/9UqikTZxX0TPyaV+ZItUiatIAu5CALoO8HphG m9kFd/CKqR36Z1yh8Lz74Wuz/NWMdJ1k1+9/Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=GkXfIpb6KmEREes3jbU2tNPTe5CK3nRPPQ0hETp9wkhNB24yYwd7U2DZPLYwFi3SxF tiihNrRd7TLaD4/qPtNCOO5nvNtYdVUQh+Vmdlz2ERFak8YUskpQB67CmnURhUZrQwVX /KDLbtc/3R9yBHkhaAuqmfnEtCN/VwcKtQQY4= Received: by 10.213.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr805487ebd.58.1303419360157; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:56:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:55:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikbTwZ7qngCMkFqO_HidKKFM+JAiQ@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikbTwZ7qngCMkFqO_HidKKFM+JAiQ@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:55:40 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTika5gEV7w7mHj=LdaP9jA+df9ABnQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: > On 21 April 2011 20:54, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: >> >> The same has been said about CUA-bindings. Both cua-mode and viper are >> parts of Emacs and parts that many users depends on. There are other >> emulations that are not that important. In fact I do not know of any >> people still using the other emulations. >> >> But the fact is that many people using Emacs depends on cua-mode and >> viper. > > Sure, so from time to time those bindings have to be updated when new > incompatibilities arise with the default Emacs bindings. How is that a > big deal? The big deal is that it is Emacs that has to accommodate its default bindings since the world outside is so much bigger.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 20:14:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 16:14:18 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QD0GX-0001sJ-Pv for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:14:18 -0400 Received: from exprod7og113.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.179]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QD0GV-0001s5-7c for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:14:16 -0400 Received: from mail-pw0-f45.google.com ([209.85.160.45]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob113.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTbCQEEO8d/SxN0sayOOT4Gfc+7htbE7g@HIDDEN; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:14:15 PDT Received: by pwj6 with SMTP id 6so63805pwj.4 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.38.102 with SMTP id f6mr493371pbk.199.1303416848369; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:14:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:14:07 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTikbTwZ7qngCMkFqO_HidKKFM+JAiQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 21 April 2011 20:54, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: > > The same has been said about CUA-bindings. Both cua-mode and viper are > parts of Emacs and parts that many users depends on. There are other > emulations that are not that important. In fact I do not know of any > people still using the other emulations. > > But the fact is that many people using Emacs depends on cua-mode and > viper. Sure, so from time to time those bindings have to be updated when new incompatibilities arise with the default Emacs bindings. How is that a big deal? -- http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 19:54:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 15:54:47 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCzxe-0001QH-H0 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:54:46 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCzxb-0001Q5-C6 for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:54:44 -0400 Received: by eye13 with SMTP id 13so21378eye.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AwrnPnBxEv1Jk7C1U7Zyo+BIlg431+i4P5aiG1vvPcs=; b=Ie44JA0xbaufrzqWUWaNRUjQFVXpYEFOiy7Oa87Tz6Lz2rrxUoBKa1QcVKbUFTzbUM iCzD4VPgrhMTuFd9f9ouefU3zHUimFONbrjsCe6R4hv6jcZu745hSgxHXhunx/pCwB7n 5njtGuYaxRLNgJjHOLP6h3FwqQXGc904teQAk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lUundHJsqVs+iHGfbH6jbstX77GnPNslqzDBAZDOizBiAAspuBYvhTvOS8y7mUPGqG +vM1Erv2cMPy864PHQ9fhCw09tzLYexEZbyMrkpefao8kYCq/USWegvDEWg+yUnp9+6v cezqV4kabrMopQB0qG+kk3KjPhqwYtxUjQH7U= Received: by 10.213.0.207 with SMTP id 15mr852818ebc.20.1303415677533; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:54:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:54:17 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTim6V03SG+EXMuOvKZabv1k71u0Smw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: > On 21 April 2011 19:49, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote= : >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrot= e: >>>> >> > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. >>>> >> >>>> >> Which does not work at all if you use Viper. >>>> > >>>> > We should not change Emacs default bindings based on the >>>> > bindings of Viper - or of any other emulator - or of any >>>> > other mode etc. >>>> >>>> Thanks for your view, Drew, but I found this statement of you just >>>> unusable and unnecessary here. >>> >>> You claim that a given default key "does not work at all" if you put yo= urself in >>> a special emulation mode. =C2=A0So what? =C2=A0If I play chess in check= ers mode should I >>> expect the default, chess binding of each piece to still "work" in chec= kers? >> >> This is just plain stupid. Viper is not just any emulation mode. It >> happen to be key bindings a lot of potential and current Emacs users >> knows. > > I don't understand why there's even an argument here. Viper is a mode > with a radically different approach to keybinding, so what does it > have to do with the default keybindings? It's clearly unreasonable to > expect default single-chord keybindings to take it into account. The same has been said about CUA-bindings. Both cua-mode and viper are parts of Emacs and parts that many users depends on. There are other emulations that are not that important. In fact I do not know of any people still using the other emulations. But the fact is that many people using Emacs depends on cua-mode and viper. Not taking facts into account is not a good real world reasoning.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 19:36:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 15:36:07 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCzfb-00011s-Gh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:36:07 -0400 Received: from exprod7og123.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.24]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QCzfY-0000zt-HW for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:36:05 -0400 Received: from mail-pv0-f178.google.com ([74.125.83.178]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob123.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTbCG1mX2sL+g3bAmnPw9g4MQUUkDGlFd@HIDDEN; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:34:53 PDT Received: by pvg7 with SMTP id 7so34878pvg.23 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:34:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.50.133 with SMTP id c5mr396645pbo.400.1303414486342; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:34:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:34:46 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTinD-Z0-KwZCKhioeUio03XsU_HJuw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 21 April 2011 19:49, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrote= : >>> >> > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. >>> >> >>> >> Which does not work at all if you use Viper. >>> > >>> > We should not change Emacs default bindings based on the >>> > bindings of Viper - or of any other emulator - or of any >>> > other mode etc. >>> >>> Thanks for your view, Drew, but I found this statement of you just >>> unusable and unnecessary here. >> >> You claim that a given default key "does not work at all" if you put you= rself in >> a special emulation mode. =A0So what? =A0If I play chess in checkers mod= e should I >> expect the default, chess binding of each piece to still "work" in check= ers? > > This is just plain stupid. Viper is not just any emulation mode. It > happen to be key bindings a lot of potential and current Emacs users > knows. I don't understand why there's even an argument here. Viper is a mode with a radically different approach to keybinding, so what does it have to do with the default keybindings? It's clearly unreasonable to expect default single-chord keybindings to take it into account. --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 18:50:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 14:50:27 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCyxO-0008Sw-OW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:50:27 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCyxN-0008Sl-5P for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:50:25 -0400 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so7225ewy.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:50:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SuzuhhGXsj50O5vV449DqP34CMJbxMUee6NvA56NNsk=; b=ue0Vw6nOyWuVF0tKqMoyOBppsRZ5Un5YNi41YYTNNSTcc45w9aaqIfvow7KgpGyrH+ FwL5Y1589TJUcls/XcVbaS443iOcC5FSbXFfBx7klRgjOIyYtw/ACmLdXjgZjbVwrMiA YoHIbLD2R2Q3fKm1nQ5f4YaFxTGhfKrUPtlus= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=h+/NlbJBJxM82pWoyrWF8L99VDfh3BqDt7emuXLLswtvNiAmaAscZdDHlevsIr8qtD hE5d+N0EfX9vp316zOod28Iaixzf3f32+08q8NPU/D+vM70/tRKrW323G0hb69ibTQvY LQaRzO8sczhNl0yXPBUhFiXqRRB8ApcxBbQ14= Received: by 10.213.103.80 with SMTP id j16mr774921ebo.96.1303411819305; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:50:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:49:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:49:59 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTikC_t=eMgrviMFg-YysJMow+18pXw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrote: >> >> > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. >> >> >> >> Which does not work at all if you use Viper. >> > >> > We should not change Emacs default bindings based on the >> > bindings of Viper - or of any other emulator - or of any >> > other mode etc. >> >> Thanks for your view, Drew, but I found this statement of you just >> unusable and unnecessary here. > > You claim that a given default key "does not work at all" if you put your= self in > a special emulation mode. =C2=A0So what? =C2=A0If I play chess in checker= s mode should I > expect the default, chess binding of each piece to still "work" in checke= rs? This is just plain stupid. Viper is not just any emulation mode. It happen to be key bindings a lot of potential and current Emacs users knows.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 14:13:17 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 10:13:17 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCudA-0002N4-Tf for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:13:17 -0400 Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com ([141.146.126.234]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1QCudA-0002Ms-04 for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:13:16 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p3LED6bO010580 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:13:08 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p3LED5rH012113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:13:05 GMT Received: from abhmt020.oracle.com (abhmt020.oracle.com [141.146.116.29]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3LED4XI032036; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:13:05 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.45.87) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:13:04 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "'Lennart Borgman'" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:13:00 -0700 Message-ID: <F704255C91904FD1B761B9480610B895@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> Thread-Index: AcwAIZRdicv2oyTiQYa3qUgqLcm/KAACa7FA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-Source-IP: rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A020205.4DB03B75.004A:SCFMA4539811,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' <monnier@HIDDEN>, 'Reuben Thomas' <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) > >> > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. > >> > >> Which does not work at all if you use Viper. > > > > We should not change Emacs default bindings based on the > > bindings of Viper - or of any other emulator - or of any > > other mode etc. > > Thanks for your view, Drew, but I found this statement of you just > unusable and unnecessary here. You claim that a given default key "does not work at all" if you put yourself in a special emulation mode. So what? If I play chess in checkers mode should I expect the default, chess binding of each piece to still "work" in checkers? This is a _default_ key binding we're talking about. It is not _expected_ to work in every possible mode. It's especially narrow-sighted to demand that Emacs default key bindings have their default effects in an _emulator_ mode such as Viper. Expecting default Emacs key bindings to all just "work" in a `vi' mode is ridiculous - and you should know that. You use Emacs as if it were `vi', and yet you expect all of Emacs, even its default keys, to keep your personal practice front and center - all attention on Lennart and what he's doing. It's not about your own favorite mode or your very UN-default use of Emacs. This is about a _default_ key binding. If Viper mode cannot handle a default key that you think it should be able to handle, then fix Viper mode to fit your wish. Don't ask default Emacs to worry about Viper special needs. An alternative: break out of the emulator closet once and for all. Just use `vi' itself. Then you don't need to worry at all about Emacs and its krazy keys.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 12:42:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 08:42:34 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCtDO-0000OB-2G for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:42:34 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCtDL-0000Nx-2D for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:42:32 -0400 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so550613ewy.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=/2rEvRxt+F0G/GpQwAy9TD9444Cm0cdJzUYrktGd/sI=; b=Gzl70Oz6esjixK7fbCc5i1XYPyWHbsEELpAeDrz9xdJGKniN71QxJmXshpCU6imt8Q yXv5k4ByaFxFoZ/Xk+4o2LfVaQQJnfINgm7xlaQu9t79xEy3kQAGYiKNVC2Gcvj+VtZf YtaKQWGOCciRi3DYrBrMn2S9J1Z86L45CYPds= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=ZhNb/qs+gMXg0xklSbJVYXBnxD47VAbkvXsdJpxp4IEMsYcqta0t/RNQdQWsGzC8g0 OBKHWLNVQTzYL3mH0aPbbH1bHu9q2VscXKtdWqqsbMxH0K/ENCNMv9OtvgRAg2FXnWUo 9MasjY0sHVT0ZG1Ov/0gmnp4XsZZMFpIdYK2Y= Received: by 10.213.109.199 with SMTP id k7mr651832ebp.134.1303389745193; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 05:42:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:42:05 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTin9rOsh_Q_Uvnha9ttH2nTSruwjsg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:49 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrote: >> > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. >> >> Which does not work at all if you use Viper. > > We should not change Emacs default bindings based on the bindings of Viper - or > of any other emulator - or of any other mode etc. Thanks for your view, Drew, but I found this statement of you just unusable and unnecessary here.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 06:43:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 02:43:50 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCncD-0008V0-Qa for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:43:50 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1QCncB-0008Uk-8j for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:43:47 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LJZ00200PBDEX00@HIDDEN> for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:43:37 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.129.240]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LJZ000IIPCNQHC0@HIDDEN>; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:43:37 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:43:43 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? In-reply-to: <BANLkTin0eLZveF9z=LATXWg4fPd+EVEjog@HIDDEN> To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Message-id: <83k4eo2jfk.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@HIDDEN References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> <83wrio3krx.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTin0eLZveF9z=LATXWg4fPd+EVEjog@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: rrt@HIDDEN, 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, david@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 00:03:10 +0200 > Cc: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN>, 8492@debbugs.= gnu.org, rrt@HIDDEN >=20 > On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote= : > >> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:41:41 +0100 > >> From: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> > >> Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> > >> > >> Uh, but then given w32 emacs apparently sees "lwindow"/"rwindow"= instead > >> of "super" when you press the windows keys (testing in wine not = real > >> windows), w32 emacs may also need to be adjusted to map them to > >> left/right super by default and treat them as modifiers. > > > > See w32-lwindow-modifier and w32-rwindow-modifier. =C2=A0(And not= e the > > footnote in the Emacs manual's "Windows Keyboard" node about the > > caveats.) >=20 > Which are not guaranteed to work unless you use a low level keyboar= d > hook. See EmacsW32 repository for a path with this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we must destroy Carthage, too. (The part in parentheses in my message exactly referred to the caveat= s of using these two keys.)
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2011 06:02:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 21 02:02:56 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCmyd-0007ZR-Os for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:02:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCmyb-0007ZF-SX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:02:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCmyV-0007cF-T0 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:02:48 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RFC_ABUSE_POST, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:56253) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCmyV-0007cB-Rf for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:02:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37691) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCmyV-0005k0-23 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:02:47 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCmyT-0007b5-Pj for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:02:47 -0400 Received: from mail-vx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.220.169]:33950) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCmyT-0007b1-M2 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:02:45 -0400 Received: by vxk20 with SMTP id 20so1399246vxk.0 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:02:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=b8FvSHQktCFPz3xhad9ukwcBRq6ldftzZdHSv9F1uF0=; b=sQ0GVGepX9zxAfJzBb0bo/O7Ucwyi7aaf1EoI0m9fd9SUh3OxwM7mdpF8GQs9l4umQ rhK44VopmSjGKMVsfrrHCrusELz9cjkSuLrEZs30HIeoyonNKd4JmweCnee8RVcT+mdp x/3S8fZtBM1RSKNcF+VH9ZtAEyH02KQw9cqu4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=LKresNWNkH1a1/2q/ZwjNfCt0jfK8sEyaKIS3IZjqQva2ND6f8IOoVwT29AYf+/eeI gOGyaKMgMcrz6VaRUu9PKL+mPF6ihTDbnNDmcWqx5ZFHf6qTO5Z2G7VcAlaNEGP8o3xF FuHPt5OajpwmDw9DAqFWxXLtPIT896+DIajTQ= Received: by 10.52.177.196 with SMTP id cs4mr11655522vdc.279.1303365763946; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:02:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.159.226 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:02:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <874o5smpfz.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> <BANLkTiksX3OFhVf+-VFeXQqjPRvX2sXecA@HIDDEN> <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <874o5smpfz.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:02:21 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTikBRG3J97V3Kv-=wdDYvWQN9bwOww@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) 2011/4/21 Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@HIDDEN>: > Windows Vista and Windows 7 use Win+TAB to switch between windows in > a more useless and annoying manner. Sort of like a rolodex: > http://thavarajah.dk/sites/thavarajah.dk/uploads/2007/01/vista_window_switch.png > > Yep. > > But you know, when I first encountered Windows 7, I got the distinct > impression (with precisely phenomena like the `rolodex' you refer to, > what, with Alt-TAB doing the slide across the app images and the > redundancy) that Microsoft was trying to keep up with the slickitiness > of Ubuntu. Ubuntu's just as ugly and heavy. > I wasn't hating on Windows for the rolodex thing, I'm just saying it's useless. That said, I'm not sure what window manager you're referring to when you say Ubuntu.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
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Windows Vista and Windows 7 use Win+TAB to switch between windows in
a more useless and annoying manner. Sort of like a rolodex:
http://thavarajah.dk/sites/thavarajah.dk/uploads/2007/01/vista_window_switch.png
Yep.
But you know, when I first encountered Windows 7, I got the distinct
impression (with precisely phenomena like the `rolodex' you refer to,
what, with Alt-TAB doing the slide across the app images and the
redundancy) that Microsoft was trying to keep up with the slickitiness
of Ubuntu. Ubuntu's just as ugly and heavy.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 22:51:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 18:51:22 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCgEz-0006QP-65 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:51:21 -0400 Received: from exprod7og108.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QCgEx-0006QD-JL for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:51:20 -0400 Received: from mail-pw0-f50.google.com ([209.85.160.50]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob108.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTa9jYehSwak3vEG3iTPsmavjkubUdL14@HIDDEN; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:51:19 PDT Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3so841080pwi.23 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:51:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.40.40 with SMTP id u8mr11054991pbk.333.1303339873234; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:51:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:51:13 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTi=gydOHU+bkOc=AB12P4k9hd2LkRg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 20 April 2011 23:49, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrote: >> > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. >> >> Which does not work at all if you use Viper. > > We should not change Emacs default bindings based on the bindings of Viper - or > of any other emulator - or of any other mode etc. Well, any other mode whose operation involves changing the default keymap. But otherwise, I agree with this sentiment: it's hard enough making bindings fit into Emacs without worrying about other essentially different bindings sets, other of course than the global window manager bindings that made me raise this question in the first place. -- http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 22:50:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 18:50:07 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCgDm-0006Ob-MU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:50:07 -0400 Received: from exprod7og109.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.171]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QCgDk-0006Nn-Ci for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:50:05 -0400 Received: from mail-px0-f179.google.com ([209.85.212.179]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob109.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTa9jCPllCSV+Htu2QyVMuK7EBmiQ2HSc@HIDDEN; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:50:04 PDT Received: by pxi2 with SMTP id 2so1117589pxi.24 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.38.102 with SMTP id f6mr11698278pbk.199.1303339783961; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <jwv4o5so81g.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <C2A2FF60CE5940B5B9D0ABDAA43B74CA@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinFjG_ALfJ1Qt0i2gkNGJBpx1yEzw@HIDDEN> <jwv4o5so81g.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:49:43 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTim1MO+0qucW-ecdc_K5PaSN+Wsfqg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 20 April 2011 23:48, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: >> Having said that, no key binding is better than a clever key binding. >> Some uses of completion perhaps don't need a key (as for example many >> uses of code completion, which in other IDEs pop up a list of >> completions by default). > > I think this one is a fallacy: popping up the menu may not need a key > binding, but you do need a key binding in order to select something from > that menu. =A0Admittedly, it changes the problem enough that the solution > may be simpler (e.g. M-n and M-p can be used for that whereas they don't > seem nearly as attractive for completion-at-point). I should have been more precise, because I agree with you. I should have said "perhaps doesn't need a global key binding". --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 22:49:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 18:49:25 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCgD7-0006N0-Eh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:49:25 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1QCgD5-0006Mp-1Y for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:49:23 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p3KMnGgN018193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 22:49:17 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p3KMnEBO003156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 22:49:15 GMT Received: from abhmt017.oracle.com (abhmt017.oracle.com [141.146.116.26]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3KMnEH4023581; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:49:14 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:14 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "'Lennart Borgman'" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>, "'Stefan Monnier'" <monnier@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN><BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN><BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN><jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:17 -0700 Message-ID: <773F1105A680404C90121E510917AFAF@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> Thread-Index: Acv/p1roUVtn5JemSRuDC7HlONhQQQABZKFA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-Source-IP: acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4DAF62EB.0087:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 'Reuben Thomas' <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) > > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. > > Which does not work at all if you use Viper. We should not change Emacs default bindings based on the bindings of Viper - or of any other emulator - or of any other mode etc.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:48:34 -0300
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinFjG_ALfJ1Qt0i2gkNGJBpx1yEzw@HIDDEN> (Reuben
Thomas's message of "Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:28:08 +0100")
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> Having said that, no key binding is better than a clever key binding.
> Some uses of completion perhaps don't need a key (as for example many
> uses of code completion, which in other IDEs pop up a list of
> completions by default).
I think this one is a fallacy: popping up the menu may not need a key
binding, but you do need a key binding in order to select something from
that menu. Admittedly, it changes the problem enough that the solution
may be simpler (e.g. M-n and M-p can be used for that whereas they don't
seem nearly as attractive for completion-at-point).
Stefan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 22:03:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 18:03:38 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCfUn-0005Kw-7t for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:03:38 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCfUl-0005Kj-TW for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:03:36 -0400 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so388983ewy.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:03:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OGxWI/kwCnrKihzrKFIWvLit4be9yvqz2mKQAaYPoZ8=; b=Xp3Lb4BnUMWPQU02kAsd6DGaRZbMJVIihR4Mbf6LXdCcHB4Lnh1pQRuanTSf0CiSCh H1BIZmJ1L4NUviNxDOCLMgWAO8ny71tV85FMf7fYDm/ojhgNCjIad4FyOAXhOyPnbzfr 1UcBBbm3439YYHFhcY6Kku5Y36gu/lkyNpcjs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ReOqlCJymsw3xsVSD4KiEKlUJ1JGKKnxMNszN+e32Gi/6sTGu5sJTP1ACLxoYL8fPm 2FT1lr6HugMX7Ql2gIG8EBhP7riX4FUk7C2EeZctN7r/Iaj7H+xpLl0jKXM05tBEq2vh 3WQqetRQjde6dag86CA4b+IpbLH0EwevBDXhU= Received: by 10.213.109.199 with SMTP id k7mr404553ebp.134.1303337010087; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:03:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:03:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83wrio3krx.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> <83wrio3krx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 00:03:10 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTin0eLZveF9z=LATXWg4fPd+EVEjog@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: rrt@HIDDEN, 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: >> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:41:41 +0100 >> From: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> >> Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> >> >> Uh, but then given w32 emacs apparently sees "lwindow"/"rwindow" instead >> of "super" when you press the windows keys (testing in wine not real >> windows), w32 emacs may also need to be adjusted to map them to >> left/right super by default and treat them as modifiers. > > See w32-lwindow-modifier and w32-rwindow-modifier. =C2=A0(And note the > footnote in the Emacs manual's "Windows Keyboard" node about the > caveats.) Which are not guaranteed to work unless you use a low level keyboard hook. See EmacsW32 repository for a path with this.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 22:02:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 18:02:30 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCfTi-0005J6-0d for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:02:30 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCfTf-0005It-Uh for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:02:28 -0400 Received: by eye13 with SMTP id 13so389262eye.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:02:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=tRrSfhNKzw/nQ5MBurshgaqAiuJPgCZ9/Gvz+aNSB0A=; b=iTK+5zQcpeRsNkbDfAezIVKlnpLwryaJEfp0salkejN1OV5LL6b8AB7bXeJHryBp90 o8mZkgKAToJ9pbZmo/g5xr1wjlu4l01LN6Og+XxVwM8loEtFsRpzF3T2KSE5XYIEeLoV 9rwbIRS6J7aLFrMfdSLpf6YmQbtt4wSIMGIPo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=Y8WGUoRHxaFhyJ6rwPDoiXHvBi07L/bI649XtW0dkQJZ07UBiNgf4RQEkTibj1+XDC weRE3D97vctOYXErfWsDdvJm+l38fbJG3xwjONimoTU4tl+kUMEchUJaQy5gm6Drklvo exzWNUCqbZl/czPQczPx7jSaYCj557LlrMoWw= Received: by 10.213.0.207 with SMTP id 15mr443657ebc.20.1303336942138; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:02:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:02:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4DAF25B9.5070807@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> <BANLkTiksX3OFhVf+-VFeXQqjPRvX2sXecA@HIDDEN> <4DAF25B9.5070807@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 00:02:02 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTimjFP6yggARCMeasb2qm_+17ExV5A@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>, 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 8:28 PM, David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> > > Though that does mean there is now something of an alternative to Alt+TAB on > windows, so if you do configure emacs to grab Alt+TAB at a low level on > windows with w32-register-hot-key as the docs mention, then it's no longer > the case you're hidden the ability to easily* switch app from the keyboard, > so the issue is maybe actually a bit less pressing than it used to be on > w32. I mentioned before that I have somewhere MS doc have read that Alt-TAB is not configurable. It actually still was on xp when I tested, but has anyone tested this on win7?
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 21:59:33 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 17:59:32 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCfQq-0005Ei-NB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:59:32 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCfQo-0005EV-Ko for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:59:31 -0400 Received: by eye13 with SMTP id 13so388686eye.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=MivrXNTZPJoSbIP1OUF5m/U5Des/OMSaU2H5KF9RSr0=; b=NV56DdhS+whw4Cpa2FquX3zFfFa47iKYv/+M/wQKqiAqIsfDo0SM7H4a189ZciOAx0 /sjnpqZIdbyoQlqIRML6ilh7PQWYqiq+3txH55d7dFT9sTsyH7XbrP2dxf+bXsxOw8pf T0JsxCLxzaEqjLCgWKtmoJwWiQelbw1gLBiQU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=ESunItrSFQy2i5dIvP0/ka92SSTAbxtk7a1L8Rw+i11zvH4HmfO9lkS/e1WEKQl471 q0OBbbTHOXNdjxCAev8qdkwzgmcrg5A3T3rLrXz+iDkLWZ0nc62oO/xPr1lO4Thb450I wFVdl5trlr6Cum+cD48C27lNd1NlsEwapevJ8= Received: by 10.213.103.80 with SMTP id j16mr408773ebo.96.1303336765090; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:59:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:59:05 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTikWqB6sph_d19ofsWbY8dgGd_BL-g@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: > > One that comes to mind is C-M-/ (currently bound to dabbrev-completion, > so somewhat compatible) but I'm not sure if it's convenient enough. Which is a problematic binding if you do not use US keyboard.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 21:56:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 17:56:42 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCfO5-0005Af-Sz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:56:42 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCfNz-0005AJ-T6 for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:56:40 -0400 Received: by eye13 with SMTP id 13so388176eye.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=fF5QMBCAMIqEbZRZ/TErL3hFqDS2x6+vcz8y2Y8N2Io=; b=rcjonykGkuClowm6qxmRJFTQGBQFQaBE4QRhBhwWlFcFy///O0rcjA0HK5E/aEGXY9 G4TpbLP+lALWVqRAtbTZsMTRQ26NSWy3NnsmZSUj2/Mjwi5rYhURO/pWY7bUjlmK3Li0 /8T/n1Ma+mpnI5hv6MmFkcknLRGXgsOnoo47Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=QJtWmUl+wd3gY2RFlzs/n9+x8uxCW+Pyyq8TZDf2NyC+u2WngNk2miGEA/CfCkLvT3 mrGaU44IoWEHYGH83yiqw3PUePKhCxCL3RIumMTfIo31LBqrCLb2JhssPrJNsNr6OlSi jTYKlh0m73zsm0z6I061u6rKhjsxm++TqpM88= Received: by 10.213.109.199 with SMTP id k7mr402940ebp.134.1303336590121; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:56:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:56:10 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTimP-QQ=TTm8Q1Vb-FPLLOEdG_9B7g@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: >> This is the problem: unusable defaults. I'm asking if we can have a >> usable default setting. > > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. Which does not work at all if you use Viper.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 18:28:20 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 14:28:20 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCc8S-0000VI-IM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:28:20 -0400 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <david@HIDDEN>) id 1QCc8Q-0000Ux-JO for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:28:18 -0400 Received: from [87.198.55.90] (87-198-55-90.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.55.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12D93683A6; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:28:10 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <4DAF25B9.5070807@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:28:09 +0100 From: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110402 Icedove/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> <BANLkTiksX3OFhVf+-VFeXQqjPRvX2sXecA@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <BANLkTiksX3OFhVf+-VFeXQqjPRvX2sXecA@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) On 20/04/11 18:11, Deniz Dogan wrote: > 2011/4/20 David De La Harpe Golden<david@HIDDEN>: >> (Of course, I also don't know if windows itself is now using WindowsKey-TAB >> for anything, I know it used not to.) >> > > Windows Vista and Windows 7 use Win+TAB to switch between windows in a > more useless and annoying manner. D'oh. Oh well. Though that does mean there is now something of an alternative to Alt+TAB on windows, so if you do configure emacs to grab Alt+TAB at a low level on windows with w32-register-hot-key as the docs mention, then it's no longer the case you're hidden the ability to easily* switch app from the keyboard, so the issue is maybe actually a bit less pressing than it used to be on w32. * though in a more useless and annoying, or at least gimmicky, manner...
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 18:28:17 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 14:28:17 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCc8P-0000V6-JS for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:28:17 -0400 Received: from exprod7og104.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.161]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QCc8M-0000Us-Ih for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:28:15 -0400 Received: from mail-pw0-f50.google.com ([209.85.160.50]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob104.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTa8luKNWDCCTnQ/qrMziaNDZGpsmEgtY@HIDDEN; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:28:14 PDT Received: by mail-pw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 3so534875pwi.9 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.21.131 with SMTP id v3mr10909358pbe.65.1303324088080; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <C2A2FF60CE5940B5B9D0ABDAA43B74CA@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <C2A2FF60CE5940B5B9D0ABDAA43B74CA@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:28:08 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTinFjG_ALfJ1Qt0i2gkNGJBpx1yEzw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 20 April 2011 16:49, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrote: >> Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. >> It's a bit longwinded, so it'd be good to find a better solution. > > It's not very longwinded. It's two keystrokes rather than a two-key chord for a function which users these days expect to use frequently. >=A0It was used by many perfectly capable and fast > programmers, including the one who wrote Emacs practically > overnight) and gcc. I'd be interested to know whether that's actually true, or whether they simply didn't use it. > ;-) =A0Likewise `C-M-i' - not very longwinded, and long available > for this. Takes two hands. > And anyway it doesn't really matter all that much how longwinded a _defau= lt_ > binding is. It does. If the letter 'e' were bound by default to "ESC C-M x 5 a" I wouldn't use Emacs. The point is that there are features that are relatively new which users now expect. Syntax coloring is another which went from optional (largely for performance reasons, IIRC) to on-by-default, but of course it doesn't really need keybindings. > So your logic is that simply because you cannot find an available key you= want > to complicate the behavior of the command so that it acts, in effect, as > multiple commands depending on the context. That may work: we already have plenty of context-dependent keystrokes, which are often called "electric". Tab is, as even you've noted, already overloaded. Having said that, no key binding is better than a clever key binding. Some uses of completion perhaps don't need a key (as for example many uses of code completion, which in other IDEs pop up a list of completions by default). --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 17:17:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 13:17:03 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCb1T-0007Ji-HO for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:17:03 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1QCb1P-0007J5-IB for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:17:00 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LJY00B00NXOHR00@HIDDEN> for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 20:15:54 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.129.240]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LJY0094ENYGZHK0@HIDDEN>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 20:15:54 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 20:17:06 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? In-reply-to: <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> X-012-Sender: halo1@HIDDEN To: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> Message-id: <83wrio3krx.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN, rrt@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:41:41 +0100 > From: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> > Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> > > Uh, but then given w32 emacs apparently sees "lwindow"/"rwindow" instead > of "super" when you press the windows keys (testing in wine not real > windows), w32 emacs may also need to be adjusted to map them to > left/right super by default and treat them as modifiers. See w32-lwindow-modifier and w32-rwindow-modifier. (And note the footnote in the Emacs manual's "Windows Keyboard" node about the caveats.)
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 17:11:43 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 13:11:43 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCawI-0007Bm-EW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:11:43 -0400 Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.212.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCawG-0007BW-QF for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:11:41 -0400 Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so716330vws.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:11:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=u+2fl6QJbO0RfmhGfT/X/sA07Rt8vciVL6hVj8YAJ8A=; b=C006fFw6V++CoGViL4E45S7ZVU2JcgeEM+KggIShYw+lite2mxHVLdCHo/Xn2iAerF dlQjl7gCpBwc3ptxMNJ5YXvds4QXXFByyHijbxmj+8AwrPu+PRBKOgA27/2Lck+uenHE y36nipCV2dvSAOliFR3LapPG1JpkgPKjgkVys= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=HRixDBW4SAbtJAFUKplaB8Scq9az2RqqH2VzrtJYQCKgEjxFf5Cz12noEmuq0NMYXS mV0pAMvoIalYTxWJBVo2LAWtEa4lEPXcVET7TUVTJZHgZ/q0Ileeor59/sprIOCJbRsQ 3ihZSvb8b3ttGeYx3cowhyKAd/jYjFQ0JcmdM= Received: by 10.52.169.135 with SMTP id ae7mr11039628vdc.79.1303319495173; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:11:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.159.226 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:11:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> From: Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:11:15 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTiksX3OFhVf+-VFeXQqjPRvX2sXecA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) 2011/4/20 David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN>: > (Of course, I also don't know if windows itself is now using WindowsKey-TAB > for anything, I know it used not to.) > Windows Vista and Windows 7 use Win+TAB to switch between windows in a more useless and annoying manner. Sort of like a rolodex: http://thavarajah.dk/sites/thavarajah.dk/uploads/2007/01/vista_window_switch.png -- Deniz Dogan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 16:41:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 12:41:55 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCaTT-0006Wr-54 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:41:55 -0400 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <david@HIDDEN>) id 1QCaTQ-0006We-Hh for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:41:53 -0400 Received: from [87.198.55.90] (87-198-55-90.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.55.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE347683A6; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:41:42 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <4DAF0CC5.5060005@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:41:41 +0100 From: David De La Harpe Golden <david@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110402 Icedove/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) On 20/04/11 15:16, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key ha= s >>> popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the >>> way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work i= n >>> the cases where it currently doesn't. >> I am inclined to agree that that is the path of least resistance; I >> think it remains to be demonstrated that two lots of magic can be >> loaded on to the same key, but I'm prepared to give it a go! > > Of course, pursuing this route doesn't preclude pursuing other routes a= t > the same time. So, people should feel free to suggest other keys to us= e > for completion. > Well, given that the usual mapping on x.org X11 is, for better or worse, Alt key =3D> Meta Windows/other-symbol* key =3D> super then perhaps additionally binding s-TAB out-of-box might be worth=20 considering? I expect it's mostly people with keyboards with such keys=20 who have trouble with M-TAB (and also apparently don't like C-M-i and=20 ESC TAB). (Though you might get people then trying to use such a default binding=20 as precedent to put all sorts of stuff on s-blah, sigh...) Uh, but then given w32 emacs apparently sees "lwindow"/"rwindow" instead=20 of "super" when you press the windows keys (testing in wine not real=20 windows), w32 emacs may also need to be adjusted to map them to=20 left/right super by default and treat them as modifiers. Note that such=20 a mapping would be consistent with typical x11 as above, but also=20 arguably with macosx, where "command" (=E2=8C=98) is often taken to send = super**=20 - and when you plug a pc keyboard into a mac, the windows keys become=20 "command" by default. Yes, macosx, gnustep and x11 all allow fairly=20 easy adjustment, I'm just talking about out-of-box defaults. (Of course, I also don't know if windows itself is now using=20 WindowsKey-TAB for anything, I know it used not to.) I'm one of the people who puts any window manager bindings on super in=20 the first place (windows key, innit...), obviously easy to do in common=20 X11 window managers, so don't need any of this personally (in fact I put=20 what windows has on Alt-Tab on Super-Tab so I wouldn't even see it),=20 it's just a suggestion. * You can get keyboards with a penguin there. :-) ** note how emacs/lisp/term/ns-win-el has a bunch of super bindings=20 out-of-box, saying "Here are some Nextstep-like bindings for command key=20 sequences."...
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 15:49:35 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 11:49:34 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCZen-0005Mt-G3 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:49:33 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1QCZel-0005Me-Hy for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:49:32 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p3KFnNBv021589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:25 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p3KFnMVJ014307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:22 GMT Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com (abhmt003.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3KFnLcv032762; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:49:21 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 08:49:21 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "'Stefan Monnier'" <monnier@HIDDEN>, "'Reuben Thomas'" <rrt@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN><BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN><BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 08:49:19 -0700 Message-ID: <C2A2FF60CE5940B5B9D0ABDAA43B74CA@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Thread-Index: Acv/YCFArCReOKnASrmVpWODjiMC+gAC6xYg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-Source-IP: acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4DAF0082.00C8:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. > It's a bit longwinded, so it'd be good to find a better solution. It's not very longwinded. It was used for a very long time before ALT + TAB was available for the same thing. It was used by many perfectly capable and fast programmers, including the one who wrote Emacs (practically overnight) and gcc. ;-) Likewise `C-M-i' - not very longwinded, and long available for this. And anyway it doesn't really matter all that much how longwinded a _default_ binding is. (Yes, there is no reason to purposefully use longer bindings when better, shorter ones can be found.) > Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key has > popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the > way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work in > the cases where it currently doesn't. So your logic is that simply because you cannot find an available key you want to complicate the behavior of the command so that it acts, in effect, as multiple commands depending on the context. That's not a good argument. Occam stands with his razor against it - you are multiplying things needlessly. Keep it simple. Find a key or let users find their own key for a simple, straightforward command (i.e., that does only what M-TAB does currently). Forget about combining 36 different behaviors on the same key. In practice, so-called "DWIM" too often means lousy, half-baked compromises and "do-what-some-programmer-who-thought-herself-clever-figured-would-be-innovative- and-loved-by-everyone". The "I" in DWIM is too seldom the user, and the "WIM" is too seldom accurate. Do I really care, for M-TAB or `completion-at-point'? Not much. I do care that we needlessly complicate the behavior of keys with compromised, not-so-clever-after-all DWIM-wittedness. Please go back to the problem itself and look for a simple solution _to it_. M-TAB is not easily available on several systems. OK, so you want a different key as the default binding for `completion-at-point' (or whatever). OK, so pick another key. Problem solved. But please do not redesign the behavior to become hydra-headed so it tries to adapt to multiple contexts, just because you cannot think of a good default key. That makes little sense. And TAB, in particular, is *not* "the way forward for this". If ever there was a key *not* to double-up on for this (triple? quadruple? pentuple?), TAB is it. It's just about the poorest choice possible here. (Yes, I am aware that some users have done exactly what you suggest and like the effect. Pick any behavior and you will find some users who are happy with it to the point of proselytizing. But such a chimera is not a good solution for vanilla Emacs.) Just one opinion, and no, I do not really care much. But this is misguided, IMHO.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 14:50:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 10:50:10 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCYjJ-00043h-Oj for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:50:10 -0400 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <svenjoac@HIDDEN>) id 1QCYjG-00043A-Mg for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:50:07 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Apr 2011 14:49:59 -0000 Received: from p4FC76597.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO turtle.gmx.de) [79.199.101.151] by mail.gmx.net (mp008) with SMTP; 20 Apr 2011 16:49:59 +0200 X-Authenticated: #28250155 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+XaRATopCXAZ3v2vC8nRCj4Nv84ECfMWJQiH/3+J YP0KbYPW1KE1Hv Received: by turtle.gmx.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D844A3F855; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:49:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Sven Joachim <svenjoac@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:49:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <jwvwripqao2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:16:32 -0300") Message-ID: <87zknlnfjj.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110015 (No Gnus v0.15) Emacs/23.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) On 2011-04-20 16:16 +0200, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key has >>> popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the >>> way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work in >>> the cases where it currently doesn't. >> I am inclined to agree that that is the path of least resistance; I >> think it remains to be demonstrated that two lots of magic can be >> loaded on to the same key, but I'm prepared to give it a go! > > Of course, pursuing this route doesn't preclude pursuing other routes at > the same time. So, people should feel free to suggest other keys to use > for completion. > > One that comes to mind is C-M-/ (currently bound to dabbrev-completion, > so somewhat compatible) but I'm not sure if it's convenient enough. With a German keyboard layout, C-M-/ is horribly cumbersome to type, much more inconvenient than either ESC TAB or C-M-i (I usually use the latter). Sven
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:16:32 -0300
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>> Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key has
>> popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the
>> way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work in
>> the cases where it currently doesn't.
> I am inclined to agree that that is the path of least resistance; I
> think it remains to be demonstrated that two lots of magic can be
> loaded on to the same key, but I'm prepared to give it a go!
Of course, pursuing this route doesn't preclude pursuing other routes at
the same time. So, people should feel free to suggest other keys to use
for completion.
One that comes to mind is C-M-/ (currently bound to dabbrev-completion,
so somewhat compatible) but I'm not sure if it's convenient enough.
Another one could be M-SPC, based on the idea that SPC performs
completion in many cases in the minibuffer, but that would be an
incompatible change since M-SPC currently calls just-one-space.
>> for those modes maybe completion should take precedence as
>> in "see if we're somewhere where completion makes sense and if not try
>> to reindent", so TAB would complete if point is in an identifier
>> but not if it's a BOL.
> And there's already code to do this.
I didn't know that. Where is it?
> At least if there's a concerted effort to make this work and it fails,
> there's more incentive to come up with another solution.
And the failure itself might give us a clue as to what a better solution
might look like,
Stefan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 14:07:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 10:07:45 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCY4H-000366-El for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:07:45 -0400 Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.212.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN>) id 1QCY4F-00035u-3E for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:07:44 -0400 Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so575841vws.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:07:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=qIw7x1qpR6zojLLiYi7V7+WAi1QVHqKb80fDKDcEhV4=; b=VPPcPNdhvERs/HPJeONN9iIuP3Oa0hboDj5d9OrEuovmp6xBIQW/UgTxU9zbXbUQnv k0MZ8iKQ45UlLXmpX/vUf1IZnogZql3fRI4fqyzTQyxKP7wzuuyQNDWucNbEltq18N+h meqSNY6KmYwBHQdSusLtt/3sMb2eD2bWPHcPw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=S3iWOa13S9hwnhoKya2UvTVzsRJiddMSO5rQAcH0fo10RpLjyTPKOMpHMzl5H7UrAb qlEoShaEDqKd1rib8I0oTW8GPa7ZBXteehEkfavhxSAgTl6E79co1YwU+ZxFhkySAcZQ eZEG/6cLiuoJuly7ITO4jxaU0KTbLycQ6UtDw= Received: by 10.52.169.135 with SMTP id ae7mr10768157vdc.79.1303308456264; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:07:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.159.226 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:07:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:07:16 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTi=7ydVZN_Z=0aKhgqe66_TNeZY_3A@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) 2011/4/20 Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>: >> This is the problem: unusable defaults. I'm asking if we can have a >> usable default setting. > > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. > > It's a bit longwinded, so it'd be good to find a better solution. > Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key has > popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the > way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work in > the cases where it currently doesn't. > > Currently the way it works is "try to reindent, and if there was no > change, try to complete". As mentioned this doesn't work for Python and > Haskell, so for those modes maybe completion should take precedence as > in "see if we're somewhere where completion makes sense and if not try > to reindent", so TAB would complete if point is in an identifier > but not if it's a BOL. > > Not sure if it would work well in practice, but it might be worth trying > it out. There are other cases where TAB has trouble, e.g. in text modes > where TAB doesn't reindent but jumps to the next tab position. > I don't know how/if we can combine this TAB semantics with completion. > Surely there must be keys left that are not used for any particular purpose in general. E.g. C-. comes to mind (c.f. C-M-. for find-tag-regexp), although I'm not sure how well that key is recognized by terminals. -- Deniz Dogan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 13:22:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 09:22:28 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCXMS-00024a-8d for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 09:22:28 -0400 Received: from exprod7og109.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.171]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QCXMQ-00024N-9V for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 09:22:27 -0400 Received: from mail-pv0-f175.google.com ([74.125.83.175]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob109.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTa7eDBkRlfRIJXYQ/h+CEWzNtH5jQCtN@HIDDEN; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:22:26 PDT Received: by mail-pv0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 30so389855pvc.6 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.21.131 with SMTP id v3mr10513973pbe.65.1303305740085; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> <jwv8vv5rrsu.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:22:20 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTimLpVK00NMAQLCc5soL6K6Ge-UFig@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, "Andrew W. Nosenko" <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 20 April 2011 14:18, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: >> This is the problem: unusable defaults. I'm asking if we can have a >> usable default setting. > > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. I think "usable" is stretching it a bit :) > Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key has > popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the > way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work in > the cases where it currently doesn't. I am inclined to agree that that is the path of least resistance; I think it remains to be demonstrated that two lots of magic can be loaded on to the same key, but I'm prepared to give it a go! > for those modes maybe completion should take precedence as > in "see if we're somewhere where completion makes sense and if not try > to reindent", so TAB would complete if point is in an identifier > but not if it's a BOL. And there's already code to do this. At least if there's a concerted effort to make this work and it fails, there's more incentive to come up with another solution. -- http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
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References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:18:20 -0300
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> (Reuben
Thomas's message of "Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:54:56 +0100")
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> This is the problem: unusable defaults. I'm asking if we can have a
> usable default setting.
Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB.
It's a bit longwinded, so it'd be good to find a better solution.
Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key has
popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the
way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work in
the cases where it currently doesn't.
Currently the way it works is "try to reindent, and if there was no
change, try to complete". As mentioned this doesn't work for Python and
Haskell, so for those modes maybe completion should take precedence as
in "see if we're somewhere where completion makes sense and if not try
to reindent", so TAB would complete if point is in an identifier
but not if it's a BOL.
Not sure if it would work well in practice, but it might be worth trying
it out. There are other cases where TAB has trouble, e.g. in text modes
where TAB doesn't reindent but jumps to the next tab position.
I don't know how/if we can combine this TAB semantics with completion.
Stefan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 11:55:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 20 07:55:06 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCVzu-000071-Al for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:55:06 -0400 Received: from exprod7og105.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.163]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QCVzr-00006Y-Hz for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:55:04 -0400 Received: from mail-pw0-f45.google.com ([209.85.160.45]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob105.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTa7JkF6j+wfNplREvTd550wqGw9L7odW@HIDDEN; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 04:55:03 PDT Received: by pwj6 with SMTP id 6so431124pwj.32 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 04:54:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.38.102 with SMTP id f6mr10829813pbk.199.1303300496207; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 04:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.198 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 04:54:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:54:56 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTim8ctJDtp2wiaUO=6eXqFEq4qDb3Q@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: "Andrew W. Nosenko" <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 19 April 2011 11:52, Andrew W. Nosenko <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN> wrot= e: > On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 20:26, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: >> Emacs binds various completion functions to M-Tab, which is already used >> by many window managers, including Compiz and Metacity, i.e. the WMs one >> is likely to use on a modern GNU system, for switching between open >> windows. > > Unable to say anything about Compiz, but Metacity binds nothing to > M-Tab (moreover, it binds nothing to Meta-combinations at all). =A0For > switching between windows it uses Alt-Tab. I'm sorry, I was imprecise. > Another problem is that in many Linux distros Meta and Alt bound the > same physical key by default. =A0But they may be easy splited using > keyboard preferences. This is the problem: unusable defaults. I'm asking if we can have a usable default setting. One could argue that it should be X's defaults that are fixed, but that seems rather less likely to happen. So it seems there are three options: 0. Do nothing, arguing that users can always configure things so they work. That would be a pity, as for every user who has the knowledge and patience (remember also advanced users who want to use Emacs on a new account on a new machine), there will be several who just give up, so that either they don't use Emacs, or they find it less powerful than it is. 1. Convince X packagers to bind Meta and Alt to different keys. That's a hard sell, though the purist in me does agree that window-manager operations should not use a key that is commonly used for application shortcuts. (In the past I've made my WM use the Windows key for its bindings, which seems rather more logical, but that's a change which is not going to stick as a default.) 2. Add a default binding for completion that works with Meta & Alt on the same key. (No need to remove the existing binding.) The problems with simply using Tab have already been expounded, though that's a nice option to have (especially if you're not a Python programmer!). --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2011 19:00:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 19 15:00:18 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QCG9p-00026d-U5 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:00:18 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QCG9o-00026R-PH for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:00:17 -0400 Received: by eye13 with SMTP id 13so1407eye.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:00:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=airvl9EWeolpVmPBuD5sTjpjtYBBTfhfspqnl/ew47o=; b=tr/hHPvT2iGrDnoMTRg1LpWT3hg4XdH5SKLjVhk2Cja2VeJqC8ojaD00NJSatLaM6L +veoMfPZwrQoIW/PbluKe/cts12aAeFIJathnaRne7nFOGLeDeGKeKFnlndXNtpUL2RY Tuv04Au3jg2cce0KGQH74MuB1ytipkaA6qGME= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aGY+ykkaDzkKYHQimfhBysQi7eAq6a4w9JsopPGz5ol+3aNH2+bz2wPTzdpgYToKMW YhPj5EtzRs86IY6kd0V2A6ymyEaHMSvsw5E/VTZbKLZUlmUGK74lrRdVzWHqRv9TXl3K 0acJ0CKPxZEjDGuffJBtsrsWMmhnNL/zGf1WQ= Received: by 10.213.109.199 with SMTP id k7mr6066ebp.134.1303239230188; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:53:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <jwvr58yv028.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinO3FTkTCptn9cAE0Pt0oF56YDaLA@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimvrHaMPVKv4vQekWKMyO_=NZJo_w@HIDDEN> <jwv1v0yxvf5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTimC5vjRwJRuzie83ob5doycppt4gg@HIDDEN> <jwvr58yv028.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:53:29 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTikg9ubEGsyUv9ZDckCsv+V2PUYLTw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: >> This is what I have in tabkey2.el in nXhtml (though it might be broken >> at the moment): > > That only tells me of alternatives you've thought of. =C2=A0I'm only > interested in alternatives that really make sense at the same time at > the same place (the others aren't in conflict). That is handled by the third argument in each record.
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:34:17 -0300
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimC5vjRwJRuzie83ob5doycppt4gg@HIDDEN> (Lennart
Borgman's message of "Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:01:14 +0200")
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> This is what I have in tabkey2.el in nXhtml (though it might be broken
> at the moment):
That only tells me of alternatives you've thought of. I'm only
interested in alternatives that really make sense at the same time at
the same place (the others aren't in conflict).
Stefan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:01:14 +0200
Message-ID: <BANLkTimC5vjRwJRuzie83ob5doycppt4gg@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>>>> Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding =
for
>>>>> completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather th=
an simply a
>>>>> different one?
>>>> TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete).
>>> Thanks for the tip, I'll try that.
>> The idea is nice, but there is perhaps a problem with the current
>> implementation: There are many ways to complete in Emacs.
>
> It's not the ultimate solution, no. =C2=A0I'm not sure what "other choice=
s"
> you're thinking of, but I know that for some major modes, mixing
> completion and indentation via (setq tab-always-indent 'complete) is not
> really an option (e.g. Python where TAB cycles through various
> indentation levels).
This is what I have in tabkey2.el in nXhtml (though it might be broken
at the moment):
(defcustom tabkey2-completion-functions
'(
("Emacs default completion" completion-at-point
completion-at-point-functions)
;; Front ends (should take care of the rest, ie temporary things,
;; snippets etc...)
("Company Mode completion" company-complete company-mode)
;; Temporary things
("Spell check word" flyspell-correct-word-before-point nil)
;; Snippets
("Yasnippet" yas/expand (yas/expandable-at-point))
;; Main mode related, often used
("Semantic Smart Completion" senator-complete-symbol senator-minor-mode=
)
("Programmable completion" pcomplete (and (boundp
'pcomplete-parse-arguments-function)
pcomplete-parse-arguments-function))
("nXML completion" nxml-complete (derived-mode-p 'nxml-mode))
("Complete Emacs symbol" lisp-complete-symbol (and (derived-mode-p
'emacs-lisp-mode)
(not (fboundp
'completion-at-point))))
("Widget complete" widget-complete nil)
("Comint Dynamic Complete" comint-dynamic-complete nil)
("PHP completion" php-complete-function php-mode)
("Tags completion" complete-tag nil)
;; General word completion
("Predictive word" complete-word-at-point predictive-mode)
("Predictive abbreviations" pabbrev-expand-maybe)
("Dynamic word expansion" dabbrev-expand t (setq
dabbrev--last-abbrev-location nil))
("Ispell complete word" ispell-complete-word t)
;; The catch all
("Anything" anything (commandp 'anything))
)
"List of completion functions.
The first 'active' entry in this list is normally used during the
'Tab completion state' by `tabkey2-complete'. An entry in the
list should have either of this forms
\(TITLE COMPLETION-FUNCTION ACTIVE-FORM RESET-FORM)
TITLE to show in menus etc.
COMPLETION-FUNCTION is the completion function symbol.
The entry is considered active if the symbol COMPLETION-FUNCTION
is bound to a command and
- This function has a key binding at point and ACTIVE-FORM is
equal to nil.
or
- The elisp expression ACTIVE-FORM evaluates to non-nil. If it
is a single symbol then its variable value is used, otherwise
the elisp form is evaled.
RESET-FORM is used to reset the completion function before
calling it.
When choosing with `tabkey2-cycle-completion-functions'
only the currently active entry in this list are shown."
:type '(repeat (list string (choice (command :tag "Currently known comman=
d")
(symbol :tag "Command not known yet"=
))
(choice (const :tag "Active only if it has a
key binding at point" nil)
(sexp :tag "Elisp, if evals to non-nil
then active"))
(sexp :tag "Elisp, reset completion function")))
:group 'tabkey2)
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
Message-ID: <jwv1v0yxvf5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:46:13 -0300
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimvrHaMPVKv4vQekWKMyO_=NZJo_w@HIDDEN> (Lennart
Borgman's message of "Sat, 16 Apr 2011 01:21:10 +0200")
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>>>> Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding f=
or
>>>> completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather tha=
n simply a
>>>> different one?
>>> TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete).
>> Thanks for the tip, I'll try that.
> The idea is nice, but there is perhaps a problem with the current
> implementation: There are many ways to complete in Emacs.
It's not the ultimate solution, no. I'm not sure what "other choices"
you're thinking of, but I know that for some major modes, mixing
completion and indentation via (setq tab-always-indent 'complete) is not
really an option (e.g. Python where TAB cycles through various
indentation levels).
Stefan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2011 12:21:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 19 08:21:46 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QC9w9-0001Vm-M5 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:21:45 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QC9w8-0001VU-4G for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:21:44 -0400 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so1962884ewy.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 05:21:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qpOQ9tQ9EH+JXipmA27xMzvCKS8GsAxuClXSuNRhEqo=; b=CFwZe0FM8J+aGpJt/ANmCVZorZ2sTv9f9viUEGgPIBY81RAongIBMQrgmyb3VuSUTJ lDLrjMS12DqD6xvtMhBWeFOy/z05wOTl4dW48MaWzESFpfSaiVyGrgSGpIDuD8/SqsN/ dD9hqbcFEGS71Q5imPuWvZFDay1Zo8yi34yDI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=shR9TqP7/73nh4r9CqFN1YLifdcbwPAdxo2qzUqPk57mOJ2/h9G37X5SZOTYY06fHo TIcsk9XaHnsOvkdkJ26y/NuzX+pjRaEB2MY8NXrbBIK7PKjdh16cKm1UVqdXN5RzCsF1 ToSkp46fBb2Ur3B3HMCrBa1EcEBZtqNkPrNG4= Received: by 10.213.103.80 with SMTP id j16mr4050890ebo.96.1303215698124; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 05:21:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 05:21:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:21:18 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTin9-+FHnZKZkHRuoQg3NU08vzVzJg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: "Andrew W. Nosenko" <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Andrew W. Nosenko <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 20:26, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: >> Emacs binds various completion functions to M-Tab, which is already used >> by many window managers, including Compiz and Metacity, i.e. the WMs one >> is likely to use on a modern GNU system, for switching between open >> windows. > > Unable to say anything about Compiz, but Metacity binds nothing to > M-Tab (moreover, it binds nothing to Meta-combinations at all). =C2=A0For > switching between windows it uses Alt-Tab. > > Another problem is that in many Linux distros Meta and Alt bound the > same physical key by default. =C2=A0But they may be easy splited using > keyboard preferences. =C2=A0I use Windows key for Meta and Alt key for Al= t, > for example. On w32 moving Emacs META from Alt to the Windows key is not that simple. It requires my patch for this to be reliable (avaliable in the EmacsW32 repository).
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2011 10:52:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 19 06:52:12 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QC8XT-00074q-SR for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 06:52:12 -0400 Received: from mail-iy0-f172.google.com ([209.85.210.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN>) id 1QC8XQ-00074b-ML for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 06:52:09 -0400 Received: by iye19 with SMTP id 19so5635612iye.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 03:52:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=N/zbitW7XW2c5+3pOj5GIbv0nUTAes2E2dUlGa0vIYE=; b=ciuz1vwBvpJbwF42vAgObkMHCtBdaJigNDS7k5YQVQDegab0M9qsFn/WdxGIXayBYh liDu9p6grc4A/fTUNxUB4uGDRazUxxXcy30h++51Q/tuRAca+VpLHH5HwsrsmRKmNg+X TRXdnICXtd88AHojbNVh0A6TgzNfhgiuc6WXY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=xY/QR90P2n2ztkojnm/lS0gV9mlGuI5kjxMtDT5h8uMOwmJw0AH50Y5t0zA/IOgOyL pN998hgubSMiQCiap0lCqVsY+weeIEpL/d3yhQ4rMYlPFWI+CkVRbgZzBA5DO8mxynvV F/AwtCFBGIQdpYgwj2wUGdwA2wAFEfiwGXXEo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.137.10 with SMTP id w10mr1082586ict.347.1303210323092; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 03:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.134.138 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2011 03:52:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:52:03 +0300 Message-ID: <BANLkTi=Hn5aoXpcjxG8b4HTUj-K+gB8AdQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: "Andrew W. Nosenko" <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN> To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 20:26, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: > Emacs binds various completion functions to M-Tab, which is already used > by many window managers, including Compiz and Metacity, i.e. the WMs one > is likely to use on a modern GNU system, for switching between open > windows. Unable to say anything about Compiz, but Metacity binds nothing to M-Tab (moreover, it binds nothing to Meta-combinations at all). For switching between windows it uses Alt-Tab. Another problem is that in many Linux distros Meta and Alt bound the same physical key by default. But they may be easy splited using keyboard preferences. I use Windows key for Meta and Alt key for Alt, for example. -- Andrew W. Nosenko <andrew.w.nosenko@HIDDEN>
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Apr 2011 23:21:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 15 19:21:42 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QAsKb-0005Cz-VQ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:21:42 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1QAsKY-0005Cl-2B for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:21:40 -0400 Received: by eye13 with SMTP id 13so1038533eye.3 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:21:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=24Tj6zfuFtVlkq3fSQNv+XTMKTgIYnK2oGFXPargNmI=; b=wXyYiH/pXwjzXiES/+2QnF2iG7LLGZoDg/3lVUoEF/G9W3XIEXqEMWhj8wJyRkLpcf eNpX8sTDtDVbkSi0JTp0yQhmkPq2jPFlD4Pm+stvs0DRjLYjUpeE1P9bVeQdnu7+OKvS xQevdajPjlGd7d3CfTSKukArQylGftrK5iZ90= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Fw+qxy/5Q53u+gob/ypGxE63ScJQaeHMk6SvSbCkUKynoRpRMK33PFRxXeS/H/S9QV r8XY3kU07ktbxT0xkucrIbkIzocQzDIdItNqywyEA7CEUgdi+EmrHCYUzmLck2jEkK38 2yTP+l7+E1cZZrLqmGvaHBA0d1HSjrFFzrRlw= Received: by 10.213.0.211 with SMTP id 19mr3044080ebc.145.1302909690398; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:21:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.9.196 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:21:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinO3FTkTCptn9cAE0Pt0oF56YDaLA@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <BANLkTinO3FTkTCptn9cAE0Pt0oF56YDaLA@HIDDEN> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 01:21:10 +0200 Message-ID: <BANLkTimvrHaMPVKv4vQekWKMyO_=NZJo_w@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 12:53 AM, Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> wrote: > On 15 April 2011 20:53, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: >>> Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding fo= r >>> completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather than= simply a >>> different one? >> >> TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete). > > Thanks for the tip, I'll try that. The idea is nice, but there is perhaps a problem with the current implementation: There are many ways to complete in Emacs. In for example tabkey2.el other choices are made available too. See http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabCompletion for more info. (tabkey2.el may be broken at the moment, I am not sure how it works right now.)
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Apr 2011 22:53:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 15 18:53:28 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QArtI-0004b4-5u for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:53:28 -0400 Received: from exprod7og126.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.206]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QArtF-0004aq-HZ for 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:53:26 -0400 Received: from mail-px0-f176.google.com ([209.85.212.176]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob126.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTajMXhhOjeoBkQCO3+JSz9F85sNPMzAE@HIDDEN; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:53:25 PDT Received: by pxi11 with SMTP id 11so1338291pxi.35 for <8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:53:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.7.74 with SMTP id h10mr2652822pba.350.1302907998364; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.60.4 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:53:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 23:53:18 +0100 Message-ID: <BANLkTinO3FTkTCptn9cAE0Pt0oF56YDaLA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8492 Cc: 8492 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) On 15 April 2011 20:53, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote: >> Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding for >> completion functions, even if it=92s an extra binding rather than simply= a >> different one? > > TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete). Thanks for the tip, I'll try that. --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion?
Message-ID: <jwvtydzmgv8.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:53:28 -0300
In-Reply-To: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Reuben Thomas's message of "Wed, 13
Apr 2011 18:26:15 +0100")
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> Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding for
> completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather than s=
imply a
> different one?
TAB can do completion if you (setq tab-always-indent 'complete).
Stefan
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Apr 2011 17:26:41 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 13 13:26:41 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QA3pw-0004A7-C7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:26:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QA3pt-00049v-6L for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:26:38 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QA3pm-00012Y-C3 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:26:31 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:52900) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QA3pm-00012U-AS for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:26:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43725) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QA3pk-0000jv-H2 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:26:30 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QA3pi-000120-TC for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:26:28 -0400 Received: from exprod7ob106.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.164]:37124) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <rrt@HIDDEN>) id 1QA3pi-00011w-Gc for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:26:26 -0400 Received: from mail-wy0-f182.google.com ([74.125.82.182]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob106.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTaXcvunVGlzsKLP73ghBWGcAr+lkcF4+@postini.com; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:26:25 PDT Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so1255113wyf.27 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.157.68 with SMTP id a4mr7828709wbx.198.1302715580399; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from canta (87-194-87-241.bethere.co.uk [87.194.87.241]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z13sm45603wbd.12.2011.04.13.10.26.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:26:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN> To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Subject: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:26:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Emacs binds various completion functions to M-Tab, which is already used by many window managers, including Compiz and Metacity, i.e. the WMs one is likely to use on a modern GNU system, for switching between open windows. Is it therefore time to admit defeat and find an alternative binding for completion functions, even if it=E2=80=99s an extra binding rather than sim= ply a different one? In GNU Emacs 23.3.2 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.22.0) of 2011-03-02 on canta Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10900000 Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8 value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix default enable-multibyte-characters: t Major mode: Javascript/nxhtml Minor modes in effect: nxml-where-marks: t nxml-where-tag+id: t nxml-where-header: t shell-dirtrack-mode: t show-paren-mode: t savehist-mode: t minibuffer-electric-default-mode: t iswitchb-mode: t icomplete-mode: t global-whitespace-mode: t global-auto-revert-mode: t nxhtml-menu-mode: t nxhtml-tag-do-also: t popcmp-group-alternatives: t popcmp-short-help-beside-alts: t mlinks-active-links: t rngalt-minimal-validation-header: t rngalt-display-validation-header: t desktop-save-mode: t flyspell-mode: t recentf-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t column-number-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent input: t m l - w e b - <tab> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace>=20 <backspace> <tab> v c <tab> s <tab> <backspace> <backspace>=20 <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace>=20 <backspace> <backspace> C-g <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1>=20 M-x w e b - c v s - <backspace> <backspace> <backspace>=20 <backspace> v b <backspace> c s <tab> n x <tab> <return>=20 3 y C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c=20 C-x 0 <help-echo> <help-echo> <help-echo> <help-echo>=20 <help-echo> <help-echo> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <help-echo>=20 <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> C-x b n i n <backspace> <backspace>=20 <backspace> i n d e <return> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up>=20 <up> <up> <up> <help-echo> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1>=20 <left> <left> M-x x m <backspace> <backspace> n x m=20 l =3D - c o m <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace>=20 - <backspace> <backspace> - c o m p l e t e <return>=20 C-g <down-mouse-1> <mouse-movement> <mouse-movement>=20 <drag-mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> C-x 1 M-x <up>=20 <return> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> M-x <up> <return>=20 <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> y <help-echo> <down-mouse-1>=20 <mouse-1> M-< <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> M-x r e p o=20 r t =3D - b <backspace> <backspace> - <backspace> <backspace>=20 - e m a c s - b u g <return> Recent messages: XHTML validation header that sets the DTD to XHTML. This will not be inserted in the buffer but completion and XHTML validation will assume it is there so both error checking and completion will work. Do you want to add a fictive XHTML validation header? (y or n)=20 No alternative found Using vacuous schema [3 times] Mark set Using vacuous schema Load-path shadows: /home/rrt/local/share/emacs/nxhtml/util/rnc-mode hides /usr/share/emacs-sna= pshot/site-lisp/rnc-mode/rnc-mode /home/rrt/local/share/emacs/nxhtml/related/php-mode hides /home/rrt/local/s= hare/emacs/site-lisp/php-mode /home/rrt/local/share/emacs/nxhtml/related/csharp-mode hides /home/rrt/loca= l/share/emacs/site-lisp/csharp-mode /home/rrt/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/popup hides /usr/local/share/emacs/23= .3/site-lisp/auto-complete/popup /home/rrt/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/fuzzy hides /usr/local/share/emacs/23= .3/site-lisp/auto-complete/fuzzy /home/rrt/.emacs.d/elpa/css-mode-1.0/css-mode hides /usr/local/share/emacs/= 23.3/site-lisp/css-mode/css-mode /home/rrt/.emacs.d/elpa/dictionary-1.8.7/link hides /usr/local/share/emacs/= 23.3/site-lisp/dictionary-el/link /home/rrt/.emacs.d/elpa/dictionary-1.8.7/connection hides /usr/local/share/= emacs/23.3/site-lisp/dictionary-el/connection /home/rrt/.emacs.d/elpa/dictionary-1.8.7/dictionary-init hides /usr/local/s= hare/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/dictionary-el/dictionary-init /home/rrt/.emacs.d/elpa/dictionary-1.8.7/dictionary hides /usr/local/share/= emacs/23.3/site-lisp/dictionary-el/dictionary /home/rrt/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/dict hides /usr/local/share/emacs/23.= 3/site-lisp/emacs-goodies-el/dict /home/rrt/.emacs.d/elpa/css-mode-1.0/css-mode hides /usr/local/share/emacs/= 23.3/lisp/textmodes/css-mode /usr/share/emacs-snapshot/site-lisp/ruby1.8-elisp/ruby-mode hides /usr/loca= l/share/emacs/23.3/lisp/progmodes/ruby-mode /home/rrt/.emacs.d/elpa/css-mode-1.0/css-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-l= isp/css-mode/css-mode /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-info hides /usr/share/emac= s/site-lisp/auctex/tex-info /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/context-nl hides /usr/share/em= acs/site-lisp/auctex/context-nl /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/context-en hides /usr/share/em= acs/site-lisp/auctex/context-en /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/latex hides /usr/share/emacs/s= ite-lisp/auctex/latex /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-mik hides /usr/share/emacs= /site-lisp/auctex/tex-mik /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/dictionary-el/lpath hides /usr/share/= emacs/site-lisp/auctex/lpath /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-buf hides /usr/share/emacs= /site-lisp/auctex/tex-buf /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-jp hides /usr/share/emacs/= site-lisp/auctex/tex-jp /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-bar hides /usr/share/emacs= /site-lisp/auctex/tex-bar /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex hides /usr/share/emacs/sit= e-lisp/auctex/tex /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/multi-prompt hides /usr/share/= emacs/site-lisp/auctex/multi-prompt /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fptex hides /usr/share/ema= cs/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fptex /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-font hides /usr/share/emac= s/site-lisp/auctex/tex-font /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fold hides /usr/share/emac= s/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fold /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/texmathp hides /usr/share/emac= s/site-lisp/auctex/texmathp /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/context hides /usr/share/emacs= /site-lisp/auctex/context /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/font-latex hides /usr/share/em= acs/site-lisp/auctex/font-latex /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/bib-cite hides /usr/share/emac= s/site-lisp/auctex/bib-cite /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/toolbar-x hides /usr/share/ema= cs/site-lisp/auctex/toolbar-x /usr/local/share/emacs/23.3/site-lisp/auctex/tex-style hides /usr/share/ema= cs/site-lisp/auctex/tex-style Features: (shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug zencoding-mode whelp wid-browse viper-tut useful-commands tyda tabkey2 sml-modeline sex-mode search-form rxi rebind pointback pause org-panel ocr-user new-key-seq-widget n-back winsize ourcomments-widgets winsav windmove trace mumamo-regions ps-print ps-def lpr mumamo-aspnet markchars key-cat inlimg idn html-write hl-needed vline hl-line hfyview gpl ediff-url custsets cus-new-user css-simple-completion css-palette chartg buffer-bg as-external wrap-to-fill anchored-transpose wikipedia-mode tutorial visual-basic-mode tt-mode smarty-mode hippie-exp add-log mozadd iss-mumamo iss-mode flymu flymakemsg flymake-java-1 flymake-helpers flymake-css django csharp-mode outline-magic nxml-where nxhtml-js nxhtml-strval nxhtml-bug html-wtoc html-move html-chklnk autostart22 nxhtmlmaint message sendmail ecomplete rfc822 mml mml-sec mailabbrev nnheader gmm-utils mailheader canlock sha1 hex-util hashcash org-wl org-w3m org-vm org-rmail org-mhe org-mew org-irc org-jsinfo org-infojs org-html org-exp org-exp-blocks org-agenda org-info org-gnus org-bibtex org-bbdb parse-time timezone mail-utils url-cache nxhtml-web-vcs jka-compr autoconf autoconf-mode vc-git css-mode js json thingatpt newcomment nxml-uchnm rng-xsd xsd-regexp rng-cmpct face-remap filladapt nxhtml-mumamo mumamo-fun nxhtml completing-help ange-ftp tramp-imap tramp-gw tramp-fish tramp-smb tramp-cache tramp-ftp tramp-cmds tramp auth-source shell password-cache format-spec tramp-compat trampver paren savehist minibuf-eldef iswitchb icomplete whitespace autorevert time server nxhtml-autostart nxhtml-autoload moz majmodpri rnc-mode nxhtml-menu udev-rinari udev-ecb udev flymake-js flymake css-color nxhtml-mode html-quote tidy-xhtml ediff-merg ediff-diff ediff-wind ediff-help ediff-util ediff-mult ediff-init ediff html-imenu imenu loadhist popcmp xhtml-help mlinks html-toc xml fupd html-pagetoc foldit appmenu-fold appmenu mumamo sgml-mode rngalt rng-nxml nxml-mode nxml-outln nxml-rap nxml-glyph rng-valid rng-loc rng-uri rng-parse nxml-parse rng-match rng-dt rng-util rng-pttrn nxml-ns nxml-util nxml-enc xmltok desktop help-mode view flyspell fold-dwim hideshow html-upl html-site ourcomments-util uniquify recentf tree-widget org byte-opt warnings org-footnote org-src org-list org-faces org-compat org-macs noutline outline ido bookmark pp apropos grep ffip gimpedit dired web-vcs bytecomp byte-compile rx url-http tls url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-auth url-cookie url-util url-parse url-gw url-vars mm-decode gnus-util netrc mm-bodies mm-encode mailcap mail-parse rfc2231 rfc2047 rfc2045 qp ietf-drums mm-util time-date mail-prsvr cus-edit cus-start cus-load wid-edit compile web-autoload nxhtml-base php-mode etags cc-langs cc-mode cc-fonts cc-menus cc-cmds cc-styles cc-align cc-engine cc-vars cc-defs speedbar sb-image ezimage dframe lua-mode regexp-opt comint ring ropemacs pymacs smart-quotes ffap ispell auto-dictionary-autoloads c-eldoc-autoloads css-mode-autoloads dictionary-autoloads diff-git-autoloads dired-isearch-autoloads full-ack-autoloads guess-style-autoloads javascript-autoloads kill-ring-search-autoloads lambdacalc-autoloads magit-autoloads mv-shell-autoloads tumble-autoloads http-post-simple-autoloads package reporter advice advice-preload yasnippet help-fns derived edmacro kmacro easymenu assoc cl cl-19 muse-autoloads emacs-goodies-el emacs-goodies-custom emacs-goodies-loaddefs easy-mmode bbdb-autoloads preview-latex tex-site auto-loads tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd font-setting tool-bar dnd fontset image fringe lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mldrag mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev loaddefs button minibuffer faces cus-face files text-properties overlay md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dbusbind system-font-setting font-render-setting gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs) --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org/
Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#8492; Package emacs.
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